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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Oct 27 2024, 5:07pm
Post #1 of 8
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Legolas and Gimli in the First Age
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1. Introduction
It is not perhaps well known that "Legolas Greenleaf" and "Gimli" are characters that appear in Tolkien's First Age stories. They did not make it to the published Silmarillion, and their appearances are limited to The Book of Lost Tales, where they play very minor parts, easily overlooked.
A discussion on whether these two characters might be the same as would later become famous in The Lord of the Rings will be the topic of this post.
2. The First Age Legolas
2.1 Legolas in The Fall of Gondolin
An Elf named Legolas Greenleaf appears in The Book of Lost Tales as a named minor character in the story of the fall of Gondolin. (Tolkien's later restart of The Fall of Gondolin never reaches the parts where Legolas would have appeared, so we don't know how or if his character would have been portrayed.) The First Age Legolas has three small appearances in the story, all of which make make note of his eyesight:
#1:
But the others, led by one Legolas Greenleaf of the house of the Tree, who knew all that plain by day or by dark, and was night-sighted, made much speed over the vale for all their weariness, and halted only after a great march.
#2:
Galdor and a band of men spear-armed went ahead, and Legolas was with them, whose eyes were like cats' for the dark, yet could they see further.
#3:
Behold, Galdor's men were beset in the dark suddenly by shapes leaping from behind rocks where they had lain hidden even from the glance of Legolas.
In Entries in the Name-list to The Fall of Gondolin we find Legolas again, with his night-sightedness highlighted again and with a mention that this Legolas ended up living in Tol Eressëa. (Tolkien calls this Legolas a "man", but in this early time in his career Tolkien would casually use the word to refer to male Elves, as demonstrated multiple times in The Fall of Gondolin.)
Legolas 'or Greenleaf was a man of the Tree, who led the exiles over Tumladin in the dark, being night-sighted, and he liveth still in Tol Eressëa named by the Eldar there Laiqalasse; but the book of Rúmil saith further hereon.'
The Third Age Legolas does end up sailing to Tol Eressëa after the plot of The Lord of the Rings, thousands of years before the frame narrative of The Book of Lost Tales happens in Tolkien's chronology, so this side note in no way contradicts the First Age Legolas possibly being the same person as the Third Age Legolas.
The consistent distinguishing trait of this Legolas is that his sight, especially at night, is depicted as exceptionally keen even for an Elf. It is unknown if Tolkien meant for this to be because of natural variation within the Noldor or if he imagined some deeper reason. (For example, it could be similar to how Frodo gains improved night sight after recovering from the Morgul wound or be related to Legolas not being a Noldo in origin.) This Legolas also shows himself able to march swiftly over long distances. This all is entirely consistent with how the character Legolas Greenleaf is portrayed in The Lord of the Rings, where he accurately shoots down a Nazgűl mount in darkness and runs far and long to save Merry and Pippin.
In the chapter The Bridge of Khazad-dűm Legolas upon seeing the Balrog has an very strong emotional reaction, the strongest in all the Fellowship:
It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.
"Ai! ai!" wailed Legolas. "A Balrog! A Balrog is come!"
Legolas is normally the calm and quiet one, but his sheer terror in this scene could be plausibly caused by resurfacing memories of his personal Balrog experiences from the fall of Gondolin.
2.2 The Return of Legolas
It is well-known that Tolkien considered the unusual name "Glorfindel" reason enough to arrange for the First Age Glorfindel to be the same person as the Third Age Glorfindel, even if making it so necessitated the use of unlikely and special plot devices, even if the original First Age Glorfindel had never appeared in print, and so Tolkien had Glorfindel sail back from Valinor after having reincarnated there after his death fighting a Balrog.
"Legolas Greenleaf" also would be natural to classify as an unusual name. Rather than an overload of coincidence, I think the implicit mirror symmetry between Legolas and Glorfindel both returning to action in Middle-earth would have been appealing to Tolkien, who was fond of narrative devices of that sort, such as the chiastic structure widely found in his work. In the line of refugees crossing over the Cristhorn pass, Legolas was among the group at the head and faced an ambush from above while Glorfindel guarded the back and fought a pursuing Balrog.
I am not trying to claim that Legolas sailed back from Valinor along with Glorfindel. (That would contradict the position of Legolas as the son of Thranduil and turn the sea-longing into a plot hole.) Instead I propose that the original Legolas met his death at some point after the escape from Gondolin and before the end of the First Age so the Third Age Legolas is a reincarnation of the original Legolas.
The Laws and Customs of the Eldar says:
Those who returned from Mandos, therefore, after the death of their first body, returned always to the same name and to the same sex as formerly.
The above neatly explains how the Wood Elf son of Thranduil could have such an unusual name shared with a hero of Gondolin.
2.3 Reincarnation Complications
I'm not sure at which point in his career Tolkien decided that the Elves who reincarnate from the Halls of Mandos always reincarnate in Aman. Back when Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings, he may well have been intending for the First Age Legolas to have been a non-Noldo who reincarnated among his relatives in the East the usual way.
However when Tolkien made that simple solution not consistent with the will of the Valar, he made the unlikely solution probable: The First Age Legolas may have rejected the Call of the Valar, perhaps because he knew he was under the Doom of the Noldor or perhaps because he simply didn't trust the Valar, and so he wandered Middle-earth as a bodiless spirit, a fairë, until he managed to return to bodily life again.
According to The Laws and Customs of the Eldar it is possible for these spirits to take over material bodies without the Valar:
Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully.
(The part in the commentary to Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth that would appear to contradict this possibility is merely listing Finrod's "basic beliefs" that influence his conversation with Andreth and are not necessarily accurate in all details, especially given the First Age date of the conversation.)
I suggest that Legolas possessed a fertilized egg and gained a natural living body that way. This may not have been Tolkien's initial idea, but it may have been what Tolkien came to think.
2.4 Ethical and Demographical Considerations
Now it may appear that this theory is getting into a very dark territory where the heroic Legolas is an implicit villain, but it must be remembered that the Valar also arrange reincarnations and presumably the Valar aren't causing children to be born with foreign entities possessing their rightful bodies.
My solution to the issue of needing empty bodies is that there is a finite amount of Elf spirits in existence while Elf bodies can be generated without a hard limit. This implies that it is possible to run out of Elf spirits, and I theorize that this already having happened is the real reason Elves are on the decline in Middle-earth. The idea is that when every potential Elf has already incarnated at least once, Elves stop being born outside of Aman (save for rare exceptional circumstances) and the Elves of Middle-earth enter into a permanent decline. Neither Bilbo nor any of the other hobbits in the story encounters any Elf children. Arwen Evenstar (born 241 Third Age) is the youngest Elf whose date of birth is known. It is probably relevant that the last child born late to aging parents is called an evening star.
The Third Age Legolas, whose date of birth is unknown, could have been the last Elf born in Mirkwood, the perpetual youngest of his diminishing people.
3. The First Age Gimli
3.1 Gimli in The Tale of Tinúviel
Gimli in The Book of Lost Tales appears in The Tale of Tinúviel, an early version of Beren and Lúthien. In the story a Gnome (Noldo) named Gimli gets a brief mention as a prisoner of Tevildo's who is freed by Tinúviel along with Beren:
But she [Tinúviel] said: "Lo, let all those of the folk of the Elves or of the children of Men that are bound within these halls be brought forth," and behold, Beren was brought forth, but of other thralls there were none, save only Gimli, an aged Gnome, bent in thraldom and grown blind, but whose hearing was the keenest that has been in the world, as all songs say. Gimli came leaning upon a stick and Beren aided him
(You may have concerns about this Gimli being an Elf instead of a Dwarf, but the Lost Tales version of Beren and Lúthien is the same version in which Beren is also an Elf instead of a Man, and Sauron's place in the story is taken by Tevildo, the Prince of Cats. This particular version is narrated in Tol Eressëa to the main character Eriol by a young girl named Vëannë based on a book she loved and memorized, so there might be some issues with accuracy.)
The First Age Gimli is not a character who appears to be important to the story in any way and he is never again mentioned in the First Age stories, but according to the quoted passage the character nevertheless ended up featuring in multiple songs somehow. He must have done something to earn that fame and become known among the Elves of Tol Eressëa. This can be explained with the Third Age Gimli, who sailed to Tol Eressëa with Legolas.
3.2 The Return of Gimli
Arranging for Gimli's return to the plot long after his natural lifespan would have ended is easy with reincarnation, which the Dwarves treat as a fact. The exact metaphysical mechanics of the Dwarven reincarnation are unclear, but there is no reason to assume any extraordinary plot devices here (disregarding some very late writings that complicate the matter and contradict the information given in the Durin's Folk section of the Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings). Gimli simply died a normal death in the First Age and was later born again in the Longbeard clan, possibly with multiple unrecorded incarnations in the intervening period. If Dwarven system works similarly to the Elven version, Gimli would have started regaining memories of his past lives in adulthood.
"Truly Elrond spoke, saying that we could not foresee what we might meet upon our road. Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
-- Gimli in Farewell to Lórien
Gimli's words in this passage get a whole different level of impact if we consider the possibility that he really might have been Sauron's prisoner in a previous life and remembered what it was like. The torment being "in the dark" could be a reference to the mentioned blindness of the First Age Gimli.
4. Conclusion
I think this interpretation improves the overall story by giving it additional depth and is very likely what Tolkien had in mind when he picked "Legolas Greenleaf" and "Gimli" to be members of the Fellowship.
On a more symbolical level, the First Age Legolas is famous for sight and the First Age Gimli is famous for hearing. This dualism of sight and hearing is a recurring motif in Tolkien (see for example the two hills Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw), which in the absence of more pressing considerations could well have been reason enough for Tolkien to choose these two specific pre-existing characters out of all the potential possibilities.
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squire
Gondolin
Oct 28 2024, 12:15am
Post #2 of 8
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I have to say that in the end I don't buy most of your conclusions about Tolkien literally reviving such lightly sketched characters, rather than just re-using their names.
The themes, talents, and traits of the two First Age characters are ones that Tolkien explored and deployed repeatedly throughout his writings: extraordinary senses, extraordinary weaknesses, fatal memories, out-of-story experiences referred to in-story, etc.
But I do admire your presentation and arguments, which I think are the best that could be made in these particular comparisons!
squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Oct 28 2024, 2:05am
Post #3 of 8
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and liked the comparison of Legolas being able to see well versus Gimli being able to hear.
I also found it interesting that you may think there were two Legolas, perhaps a reincarnate for the Third Age.
Also, on an unrelated note about Legolas- didn't Tolkien mention that he was the least accomplished out of the Fellowship ? Do you know which work he mentioned that in? And why would he believe that?
Thanks for the interesting thoughts about these characters.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
(This post was edited by elentari3018 on Oct 28 2024, 2:05am)
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Oct 28 2024, 12:52pm
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I decided to take a look at how Glorfindel is described in The Fall of Gondolin to see how his portrayal compares to that of Legolas.
Basically, Glorfindel isn't portrayed as a very central character either, but as the commander of the troops of the Golden Flower he naturally gets more mentions than Legolas who serves under Galdor of the Tree. (Interestingly, the Tree appears to be the most materially disadvantaged group of soldiers in Gondolin, fighting with cheap and simple weapons and lacking the fancy armor of the likes of the Golden Flower. This points to the soldiers of the Tree and along with it Legolas not being exiles of Valinor. Their preference for green and general primitive style could suggest Laiquendi.)
When Glorfindel has his epic battle with the Balrog, the scene isn't one of the main heroes having an epic climax but a member of the supporting cast rising to the occasion and taking the center stage, kind of like Bard stepping up from the background to kill Smaug. Unlike Bard, Glorfindel gets mentioned by name multiple times before the big deed, but The Fall of Gondolin has a large number of named minor characters to make the battle look populated, so the overall effect is not too different.
A closer look at various passages that mention Glorfindel (feel free to skip):
#1: The initial description of Glorfindel in the midst of a lengthy section describing the warriors of Gondolin and their heraldic devices:
There stood the house of the Golden Flower who bare a rayed sun upon their shield, and their chief Glorfindel bare a mantle so broidered in threads of gold that it was diapered with celandine as a field in spring; and his arms were damascened with cunning gold.
#2: Glorfindel takes part in a war council:
Then did King Turgon call a council, and thither fared Tuor and Meglin as royal princes; and Duilin came with Egalmoth and Penlod the tall, and Rog strode thither with Galdor of the Tree and golden Glorfindel and Ecthelion of the voice of music. Thither too fared Salgant atremble at the tidings, and other nobles beside of less blood but better heart.
#3 to #8: Glorfindel fights in the defense of Gondolin, appearing in passages such as:
...but Glorfindel held the rear manfully and many more of the Golden Flower fell there.
#9: Glorfindel, much like Legolas, gets a short mention among the column of refugees:
At the rearmost went the largest band of men battle-whole, and there was Glorfindel of the golden hair.
#10+: In the fighting in the Cristhorn pass, Glorfindel finally manages to leave the status of a minor filler character:
Some excerpts:
Then Glorfindel leapt forward upon him and his golden armour gleamed strangely in the moon, and he hewed at that demon that it leapt again upon a great boulder and Glorfindel after.
and
Then Glorfindel's left hand sought a dirk, and this he thrust up that it pierced the Balrog's belly nigh his own face (for that demon was double his stature); and it shrieked, and fell backwards from the rock, and falling clutched Glorfindel's yellow locks beneath his cap, and those twain fell into the abyss.
Now was this a very grievous thing, for Glorfindel was most dearly beloved...
Thor(o)ndor fetches Glorfindel's fallen body from the ravine. The refugees then make "a great stone-cairn" for Glorfindel, the only character in the story to get any sort of proper burial.
To sum up Glorfindel's known traits based on the text:
- Brave and manly as well as a skilled fighter
- Long golden hair
- High nobility
- Very popular and beloved
- Likes wearing golden everything to battle
Interestingly there isn't actually enough here to make a solid connection from Glorfindel (First Age) to Glorfindel (Third Age) without outside confirmation by Tolkien. Yet Tolkien was insistent on making both characters the one and the same.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 18 2024, 2:19am
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You have a couple of misapprehensions, Silvered-glass, about Legolas and his kinfolk. First, Thranduil of the Woodland Realm (as well as his father Orophir) is not a Wood-elf, but a Sindar. Oropher was one of the Sindarin Elves who crossed the Misty Mountains to found a realm among the Silvan Elves of the Greenwood and Lindórinand (better known later as Lórien or Lothlórien). See Unfinished Tales.
Second, Elven reincarnation does not work as you have described. Tolkien settled on a scheme where Elves are not born into a reincarnation cycle. Instead, they are able to be re-embodied, as adults, into a new physical body seemingly identical to their original one. Therefore, the Legolas Greenleaf of Gondolin could not be the Legolas of the Woodland Realm, son of the Elf-king Thranduil.
As for Gimli son of Glóin, we know when and where he was born and raised. GImli was born in the Halls of Thorin Oakenshield in the Blue Mountains in the year 2879 of the Third Age of Middle-earth. He was deemed too young (or immature?) to accompany his father on the Quest of Erebor (year 2941) under the leadership of Thorin Oakenshield, instead becoming a member of the Fellowship of the Ring in 3018 at the age of 139. After becoming the Lord of the Glittering Caves in the early Fourth Age, Gimli allegedly sailed West to the Undying Lands around the year Fo.A. 120 with his good friend Legolas.
Now, I own you an apology, SIlvered-glass, for mis-gendering you in the forums. I seldom check user profiles, and did not realize that you are female. For this I am sincerely sorry and I will endeavor to do better going forward.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Nov 18 2024, 4:34pm
Post #6 of 8
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You have a couple of misapprehensions, Silvered-glass, about Legolas and his kinfolk. First, Thranduil of the Woodland Realm (as well as his father Orophir) is not a Wood-elf, but a Sindar. Oropher was one of the Sindarin Elves who crossed the Misty Mountains to found a realm among the Silvan Elves of the Greenwood and Lindórinand (better known later as Lórien or Lothlórien). See Unfinished Tales.
They're all Teleri that didn't cross the Sea though, so the differences shouldn't be large.
Second, Elven reincarnation does not work as you have described. Tolkien settled on a scheme where Elves are not born into a reincarnation cycle. Instead, they are able to be re-embodied, as adults, into a new physical body seemingly identical to their original one. Therefore, the Legolas Greenleaf of Gondolin could not be the Legolas of the Woodland Realm, son of the Elf-king Thranduil.
I did research HoME before writing my post. The problem with HoME is the organization of information though, so I could well have missed something.
From what I gathered, the body of a reincarnated (=re-embodied) Elf grows to be identical to the old one but still starts as a baby born to someone, initially without memories of its former life. The memories then return in adulthood.
Tolkien's changing opinions in his unpublished works can make determining the true "canon" difficult or impossible. He liked to float various ideas, so that, for example, at one point he wrote an essay that says that Elf women spend decades pregnant for one baby, but he had to drop that idea when he realized that it would break the Silmarillion timeline.
As for Gimli son of Glóin, we know when and where he was born and raised. GImli was born in the Halls of Thorin Oakenshield in the Blue Mountains in the year 2879 of the Third Age of Middle-earth. He was deemed too young (or immature?) to accompany his father on the Quest of Erebor (year 2941) under the leadership of Thorin Oakenshield, instead becoming a member of the Fellowship of the Ring in 3018 at the age of 139. After becoming the Lord of the Glittering Caves in the early Fourth Age, Gimli allegedly sailed West to the Undying Lands around the year Fo.A. 120 with his good friend Legolas.
None of this goes against the reincarnation theory. LotR even portrays the Dwarven reincarnation as involving being born to parents.
Now, I own you an apology, SIlvered-glass, for mis-gendering you in the forums. I seldom check user profiles, and did not realize that you are female. For this I am sincerely sorry and I will endeavor to do better going forward.
I don't mind in the slightest. People make such a huge deal about pronouns these days.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 18 2024, 4:58pm
Post #7 of 8
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Professor Tolkien began with a more tradition view of reincarnation, but that is not where he ended up. His later concept (illustrated through the example of Glorfindel) was that an elven fëa, returned to the Halls of Mandos, might be re-housed in another, adult body--identical to the original in appearance and gender. Tolkien ultimately rejected the idea of a fëa being reincarnated as an infant.
As for Gimli, the material collected in The Book of Lost Tales does, indeed, consist largely of rough drafts; however, there is no reason to think that the Gnome Gimli who was imprisoned alongside Beren would have ever been rewritten to become a Dwarf. That is a huge leap to make and can be dismissed as unjustified unless you can furnish more compelling evidence.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 18 2024, 4:59pm)
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Nov 18 2024, 8:18pm
Post #8 of 8
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On Reincarnation and also Gimli
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1. On Reincarnation
Professor Tolkien began with a more tradition view of reincarnation, but that is not where he ended up. His later concept (illustrated through the example of Glorfindel) was that an elven fëa, returned to the Halls of Mandos, might be re-housed in another, adult body--identical to the original in appearance and gender. Tolkien ultimately rejected the idea of a fëa being reincarnated as an infant.
Do you mean this passage about Glorfindel?
After his purging of any guilt that he had incurred in the rebellion, he was released from Mandos, and Manwë restored him. He then became again a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar.
That passage appears very ambiguous to me, but having Glorfindel remain in Valinor for "long years" would be very compatible with the idea that he restarted his life as a baby and his concern about Middle-earth only developed later on when he had regained his memories from his first life, compatible with Laws and Customs among the Eldar.
But well, then we have that Myths Transformed type stuff, which is annoying to make sense of because it is so rough and contradictory. Saying that Tolkien wanted to make the Elves not reincarnate is like saying that Tolkien wanted to have the world been round from the start. It may tell the truth about Tolkien's final intentions but causes so many issues in so many places that Tolkien never bothered to go through and correct.
Based on one text it might have been possible for Eru himself to intervene to have Legolas be reborn. This would have made Legolas's presence in the Fellowship a case of direct divine intervention.
Anyway, Tolkien's change of mind about reincarnation wouldn't have been until well after he wrote about the Third Age adventures of Legolas Greenleaf.
2. On Gimli
As for Gimli, the material collected in The Book of Lost Tales does, indeed, consist largely of rough drafts; however, there is no reason to think that the Gnome Gimli who was imprisoned alongside Beren would have ever been rewritten to become a Dwarf. That is a huge leap to make and can be dismissed as unjustified unless you can furnish more compelling evidence.
Yet Beren himself gets rewritten from a Gnome to a Man. If something like that can happen to a main character, why not a minor side character in the same story? It's not like there isn't a precedent. I find the name "Gimli" very significant. Tolkien paid a lot of attention to names.
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