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Is Tolkien's influence wanning?

ArathornJax
Rohan

Sep 27, 7:54am

Post #1 of 10 (3283 views)
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Is Tolkien's influence wanning? Can't Post

A question. Do you think even with Rings of Power going that Tolkien's influence has wanned over the last 10 years or so? Are we back to those that love him, following and staying up while the masses have moved on to the next thing? I fear also that the books have become less used . . . I know for the first time in three years I have began reading the Lord of the Rings books starting on Frodo's and Bilbo's birthday and am enjoying them again and finding more in them. When does an author like Tolkien begin to wane or will he?

" . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts."

J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.








(This post was edited by ArathornJax on Sep 27, 7:55am)


Silvered-glass
Lorien

Sep 27, 3:08pm

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The State of Modern Fantasy [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we are currently in a post-post-post-Tolkien period for fantasy. I find this a very dark period for finding interesting new things to read. Basically, people are no longer rehashing Tolkien (like in the generic fantasy trilogy period) or reacting against him (like in the grimdark period) but rehashing rehashes of rehashes of rehashes of Tolkien and producing works that share some superficial similarities with Tolkien but are deep down profoundly different, shallower, more simplistic, base. I think it's dire.

It's not that Tolkien's influence has as much waned but rather than it has suffused the entire genre to the point that real originality is hard to find and many readers seek comfort and predictability rather than sense of wonder and visions of distant and strange worlds. Generic elves and dwarves are plentiful, but the portrayal of those has more to do with Dungeons & Dragons and its derivatives than authentic Tolkien lore.


CMackintosh
Rivendell

Oct 6, 10:52am

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infusion, rather than injection [In reply to] Can't Post

to use a somewhat strained metaphor; Tolkien is now the background the latest novelists write against, in rather the same way that the Greek and Roman myths were the background for most of the Mediaeval and Renaissance stories, and the Matter of Britain (Arthur) and the Song of Roland was for many Renaissance and post-Renaissance stories. I mean, the output of stories influenced by the Matter of Britain and the Song of Roland is a serious worry to Don Quixote's friends ... since Don Quixote's got so many of them and is trying to act them all out.

What really worries me about so much of the current (and the 80s-90s) fantasy fiction is that they haven't taken the time to read the original stories themselves. I mean, I can tell you without much trouble, that Tolkien indirectly references the Voyage of Maelduin in the few references we have of Earendil before he with the help of his wofe and the Silmarillion, broke through the barriers the Valar had build up around Valinor; I can also assure you that CS Lewis' The Voyage Of The Dawn Treader directly references that self-same story. Of all the modern fantasy writers, the only one I can be sure of that has actually read those Irish voyage stories is Tad Williams in his Memory Thorn and Sorrow (Osten Ard) novels.

I would dearly love to read some future fantasy novel that takes as its basis say the Yoruba mythology, or the Xhosa, or perhaps the Aztec, or Lakota, or Maori or Tahitian or Hawai'ian, or even the ancient Sumerian, Egyptian, Chinese, Hittites, etc, instead of relying on what are essentially rehashes of rehashes of rehashes of ... Greek, Roman and European myth and legend.


Felagund
Rohan


Oct 6, 11:23pm

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Into the Out Of [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I would dearly love to read some future fantasy novel that takes as its basis say the Yoruba mythology, or the Xhosa, or perhaps the Aztec, or Lakota, or Maori or Tahitian or Hawai'ian, or even the ancient Sumerian, Egyptian, Chinese, Hittites, etc, instead of relying on what are essentially rehashes of rehashes of rehashes of ... Greek, Roman and European myth and legend.


I remember reading, years ago, Alan Dean Foster's Into the Out Of, in which various main characters are in modern day (1980s) East Africa, trying to overcome the 'shetani'. This is a Swahili term for (mainly) evil spirits and the author draws on that mythology to construct an end of the world scenario. I can't vouch for how sensitive the author was regarding the source material but he'd clearly done some research and it makes for an interesting story.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 7, 1:50pm

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Maztica [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
I would dearly love to read some future fantasy novel that takes as its basis say the Yoruba mythology, or the Xhosa, or perhaps the Aztec, or Lakota, or Maori or Tahitian or Hawai'ian, or even the ancient Sumerian, Egyptian, Chinese, Hittites, etc, instead of relying on what are essentially rehashes of rehashes of rehashes of ... Greek, Roman and European myth and legend.


I remember reading, years ago, Alan Dean Foster's Into the Out Of, in which various main characters are in modern day (1980s) East Africa, trying to overcome the 'shetani'. This is a Swahili term for (mainly) evil spirits and the author draws on that mythology to construct an end of the world scenario. I can't vouch for how sensitive the author was regarding the source material but he'd clearly done some research and it makes for an interesting story.



I'm suddenly reminded of Douglas Niles' Maztica Trilogy, Set in the world of D&D's Forgotten Realms. The trilogy consisted of the books:
- Ironhelm (1990)
- Viperhand (1990)
- Feathered Dragon (1991)

I remember enjoying the books quite a bit at the time.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella


Silvered-glass
Lorien

Oct 7, 6:22pm

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Mythological Inspirations [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien also had influences beyond the European ones. I can see echoes of Mesopotamian city laments such as the Lament for Ur in Denethor's character arc. Bard's Black Arrow has similarities with the astras of the Indian mythology. And the connections to the Egyptian mythology go so deep that they would take a long time to explain and would threaten to take over the thread if I got to them here.

Anyway, I think even European myth would have a lot to give to fantasy authors if they only didn't get stuck on the surface layer and also dared to be more imaginative. The current authors when using myths tend to either play everything very close to the source material (probably some modern myth book) or else do basic and simple transformations, such as a modern leanan sidhe who wears punk fashion and targets young alt rockers (a real example).

The handling of religion in modern fantasy in particular tends to have more to do with the Dungeons & Dragons than any real-world or realistic faith. Tad Williams in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn went for thinly-disguised Catholicism, which worked out a lot better than most fictional religions in fantasy despite the concept's limited originality.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Oct 7, 7:21pm

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Hard to say... [In reply to] Can't Post

Those of us who read LOTR and Hobbit in th 1970s can remember a world in which to be interested in Tolkien pretty much meant you either read the books, or read them repeatedly.

It seems there was a lot of fandom activity already but you would have to first discover it. And then you would need to be able to travel to gatherings, or send of sheets of postage stamps to pay the costs of a zine subscription.

So I suspect a lot of people, like me, didnt' even know all that stuff was going on, and just read the book.


Nowadays of course there are films, games, collectables, memes, online commentary, online discussions, online drama and controversy ....
And, importantly I think, many of Tolkien's ideas have entered popular culture as tropes. It would be possible never to have read LOTR and yet have a pretty clear idea of what an orc or hobbit is, or to have a very Tolkien-influenced ideas come to your mind if someone mentions Elves, or Dwarves. And that is just the start of a long list of tropes that have reached popular culture through the good JRR

So I think it is going the way of, say Dracula. 'Everyone' knows about vampires, even if they've never read Bram Stoker's Dracula. And indeed since they were introduced into popular culture they have gone through cycles of different use in speculative fiction.

So I suppose the reason to read Stoker (or Mary Shelley, or HP Lovecraft or Tolkien) nowadays is for the particular pleasures of reading the original author. If you want to play with the ideas or enjoy the derrived entertainment products (or various other things a person can do), you might not bother. You might not even know or perhaps not care where the ideas came from originally.

So I think that makes Tolkien's influence both waning and massively influential at the same time. Crazy




~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Oct 7, 7:22pm)


Kimi
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 7, 10:10pm

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Charlie Tangaroa and the Creature from the Sea [In reply to] Can't Post

Is a young adult one from Aotearoa New Zealand, modern day but steeped in Maori mythology. I enjoyed it very much.

https://huia.co.nz/...reature-from-the-sea


The Passing of Mistress Rose
My historical novels

Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?

- A Room With a View


Eärendil The Mariner
The Shire


Oct 21, 10:55am

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Let me put it this way [In reply to] Can't Post

I come back after a looong long time away from this place, more than twenty years since I registered on the forum, and Gramma is stil doing the Time posts, many of the names are the same but many are new. I've since started my own design firm, and it's called Silmaril Design. There are more films, and now a TV show. Every bit of art - film, game, show - brings in new people. Stories get passed on to new generations and every generation views them through their own time and frame of reference. There are always lulls, but they never last, because, as with all great stories, Tolkien's works get rediscovered and enjoyed anew.


Felagund
Rohan


Oct 24, 5:40pm

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belatedly! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been meaning to say how much I like how you put this :)

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk

 
 

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