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elentari3018
Rohan
Aug 9, 2:17am
Post #51 of 61
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Also forgot to say that i love this poem too!
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And loved how the others reacting to Sam knowing it. =)
Always loved the quote about discovering that Sam is a conspirator, wizard or maybe warrior. (paraphrasing here)
'Going to Mordor!' cried Pippin. 'I hope it won't come to that!' Again, we see that Pippin at first probably was to bring Frodo as far as he could and maybe expect others to finish what Frodo started . He does grow in Rivendell after the Council to decide with Merry that he wanted to continue the Quest. I think in that moment Pippin has also shown growth.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
(This post was edited by elentari3018 on Aug 9, 2:29am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Aug 9, 3:28pm
Post #52 of 61
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'you do not understand and cannot imagine what lies ahead'
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The membership of the party leaving Rivendell is being finalised:
'But that will leave no place for us!’ cried Pippin in dismay. ‘We don’t want to be left behind. We want to go with Frodo.’
‘That is because you do not understand and cannot imagine what lies ahead,’ said Elrond.
‘Neither does Frodo,’ said Gandalf, unexpectedly supporting Pippin. ‘Nor do any of us see clearly. It is true that if these hobbits understood the danger, they would not dare to go. But they would still wish to go, or wish that they dared, and be shamed and unhappy. I think, Elrond, that in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom.
I wonder whether M&P would have got as far as Rivendell, had they had known in advance how tough that journey would be? But now they are here, they are bravely up for more of the same -- or willing to try themselves against greater challenges.
I think Elrond is persuaded so easily because he doesn't know who should go. Aside from Frodo, clearly:
Elrond raised his eyes and looked at him, and Frodo felt his heart pierced by the sudden keenness of the glance. ‘If I understand aright all that I have heard,’ he said, ‘I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will'.
Frodo has said 'I will go with Sam', so Sam is in. Gimli, Legolas, Aragorn and Boromir make things a satisfyingly representatives-of-all-the-Free-Peoples expedition, but we're told they might be going to peel off and go home when routes diverge (home = Gondor for Aragorn now he beleives he has been summoned to its defence). So the Walking Into Mordor party might so far be Frodo, Sam, Gandalf; and two more To Be Determined.
Who else though? At the Council when it has been decided to take the Ring to Mordor and volunteers are asked for, there's a passage that could be Elrond just musing/ oracling, or which could be titled 'the Dear Frodo bit':
'The road must be trod, but it will be very hard. And neither strength nor wisdom will carry us far upon it. This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong.'
So maybe Elrond agrees to Gandalf so quickly because his earlier idea has been thrown back at him: if candidates don't need to be strong or wise, maybe faithfulness is after all a good selection criterion. Give the To Be Determined places to the determined?
And maybe if we suppose Gandalf is leading the party to Mordor, and if he wants to take four hobbits then on his own head be it?
And evidently - Fate or Higher Powers are swirling around the whole thing, and I think Gandalf and Elrond are trying hard not to mess up a plan or drift of things that they suspect but cannot fully see.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Aug 9, 6:12pm
Post #53 of 61
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Sam has several sources of knowledge
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He overheard much of Frodo and Gandalf's conversation at Bag End (we don't know exactly how much). But if he heard that the Ring must go to Mordor to be destroyed, and an owner can't give it away, then the logical conclusion is that Sam and Frodo will be going to Mordor.
I think Frodo is still in denial about this - his volunteering to take the Ring on from Rivendell doesn't seem to be something he is already settled to do.
And of course Sam had an important chat wih Gildor and the elves after Frodo went to bed. We don't get to learn what was said, because we just get what Sam says to Frodo the next morning. But it seems to have been an important thing for Sam:
You still mean to come with me?’
‘I do.’
‘It is going to be very dangerous, Sam. It is already dangerous. Most likely neither of us will come back.’
‘If you don’t come back, sir, then I shan’t, that’s certain,’ said Sam. ‘Don’t you leave him! they said to me. Leave him! I said. I never mean to. I am going with him, if he climbs to the Moon; and if any of those Black Riders try to stop him, they’ll have Sam Gamgee to reckon with, I said. They laughed.’
‘Who are they, and what are you talking about?’
‘The Elves, sir. We had some talk last night; and they seemed to know you were going away, so I didn’t see the use of denying it. Wonderful folk, Elves, sir! Wonderful!’”
...'Do you feel any need to leave the Shire now–now that your wish to see them has come true already?’ he [Frodo] asked.
‘Yes, sir. I don’t know how to say it, but after last night I feel different. I seem to see ahead, in a kind of way. I know we are going to take a very long road, into darkness; but I know I can’t turn back. It isn’t to see Elves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want–I don’t rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir, if you understand me.
" we are going to take a very long road, into darkness" sounds to me like Sam knows they have to go to Mordor. And that he personally will have an important role.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Aug 10, 6:06pm
Post #54 of 61
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just teasing, but couldn't hold back: Has Wiz been abducted? Is he sending us coded messages?
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Oddly, when I hit "Reply to post," the weird letters in his original post went away completely, but below is what I see (and I've never seen this from his other quotes). This is using Firefox on a laptop with Windows Home 11.
But I interpret the C's and T's as:
"Captured. Taken by Cornwall Tobacconist to Cardiff Train depot. Corsairs! Tooks!"
Then the mysterious Greek phi. That's so we know it's Wiz; he always spells the main character as Phrodo for some wizardly reason, or maybe it has something to do with phrogs.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Aug 10, 6:11pm
Post #55 of 61
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As the Wise rule out strength and wisdom
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So maybe Elrond agrees to Gandalf so quickly because his earlier idea has been thrown back at him: if candidates don't need to be strong or wise, maybe faithfulness is after all a good selection criterion. Give the To Be Determined places to the determined?
which on the surface, sounds kinda crazy, I think they do fall back on other heroic virtues like fidelity. Plus I agree that they feel like they are in the chaos of Fate's maelstrom, so they need to decide more by instinct and intuition and less by reason.
[But who among us is faithful enough to rescue Wiz from Cardiff? That's the burning question here.]
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Aug 11, 9:30am
Post #56 of 61
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Complicated Tale (Completely True!)
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Complicated Tale (Completely True!).
Corageous time completely thwarting criminal triad counterfeiting treacle.
Cornish treacle's copyrighted. Triad's contraband treacle (Cumnor Treacle! Church Treacle!) Clandestinely transported Cumnor --> Trowbridge --> Cardiff --> Truro.
Callous trick!
Criminal triad's cover? Treacle concealed: classical trio's concert tours conveniently transported copious things.
Compensations though: classical trio's cellist thoroughly cute. Tata!
---
Complete Tosh? Conspiracy Theory? The other possibility is that we've accidently hit on the setting that marks up the bits of canonical Tolkien that were really written by Christopher Tolkien. 
Or possibly Clarence Thomas, or Charlize Theron (jointly or severally)? That's bound to be it.
___
If I've confused any forum members familiar with Cumnor in Oxfordshire, OK, I Confess Treachery - Oxfordshire's 'treacle well' is not really in Cumnor, though it is close. Oxford' patron saint Frideswide (or Frithuswith) set it up and I'm a bit peeved with her - she could have put it in Cumnor, or Cowley, or Cutteslowe. But she had to choose....
Binsey. 
BTW: It's called the 'treacle well' from triacle (= a medicine) and people used to visit for various cures, particularly for eye problems. It's been restored and can be visited. But you can't test teh cure anymore. The authorities have let it run dry - shortsighted, perhaps.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Aug 11, 9:32am)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Aug 11, 2:25pm
Post #57 of 61
(1768 views)
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Criminal Trespass at castle's tower
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A disguised man "borrowed" items from the Tower of London in a case that his mystified Scotland Yard and other security agencies. What we know so far:
*The crown jewels were left unmolested. Instead, a partial set of silver spoons emblazoned with the Baggins family crest have disappeared, with a library card left in their place and a hastily scribbled note saying "borrowed. speak, 'friend', and I'll return them."
*CCTV shows the perpetrator muttering "precious" repeatedly in an Oxfordshire accent. "Probably a drunk student," opined one detective.
*Security guards were at pains to explain their inaction. "We get loads of American tourists dressed as hobbits in here, but never a bloke from Oxford dressed as a frog, so we let him through, naturally. Also, he knew the keypad secret security code, which is CTCTCTCTCT."
*Police called off pursuit of the suspect when a flock of eagles were seen flying the spoons toward a business called More Door LTD on the Isle of Wight. "Obviously no one goes to Wight in August; the spoons would melt."
*Waxing philosophical, a police spokesperson said, "At least they didn't take them to Loch Ness. We lost a gold ring there years ago and have never been able to find it. Even the American tourists dressed as hobbits who go diving there never found it, but a few got eaten by the monster."
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Aug 11, 2:35pm
Post #58 of 61
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The Breaking of the Fellowship abounds with incidents of courage
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And specifically for the hobbits, there is Frodo resolving to go on alone:
‘You are kind,’ answered Frodo. ‘But I do not think that any speech will help me. For I know what I should do, but I am afraid of doing it, Boromir: afraid.’
Then Sam deciding he must follow him at all costs.
And M&P running off into the woods to save Frodo, recklessly. (Lucky for us their courage matured later on.)
Plus the other four members all behaving bravely, including Boromir when he came back to his senses. I suppose that's why it's such a moving chapter beyond the breaking itself of the fellowship. We see everyone at their best.
(This post was edited by CuriousG on Aug 11, 2:36pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Aug 11, 6:49pm
Post #59 of 61
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I carefully turned off that switch that said "CTCTV". But I guess that just turned on the CCTV, huh?
Now I shall have to go to the Isle of Wight, try to recover the spoons and clear my name.
[Really enjoyed that -- thanks for doing it! ]
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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elentari3018
Rohan
Aug 16, 2:16am
Post #60 of 61
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For Sam's motivation, did he have the slow kindled courage too that was going to develop?
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We see his courage being motivated solely for the love of his master and even in MOrdor we see his courage and loyalty tested with him bearing the Ring briefly.
His innate hobbit-sense knew he was too little to claim the Ring.
IN that hour of trial it was the love of his master that helped most to hold him firm; but also deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit-sense: he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden, even if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him. The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hadns of others to command."
I use this example to show that Sam knew a lot and developed his courage along the way of the Quest as much as M&P and Frodo but he always had a humbleness to it and also plain loyalty and love to Frodo is what i loved best about him. That is quite a turning point of how Sam not only resisted the Ring but had the courage to move on to the Tower of Cirith Ungol to rescue his master.
ALso in HOME Tolkien did mention he is "hope unquenchable" which i do see how hope had made him more courageous too.
Do all the hobbits contain the same amount of hope to enable them to be courageous? we can argue that the Travelers did have that hobbit-sense to move on beyond hope and go beyond one expects. From Merry with helping Eowyn defeat the WK to Pippin rescuing Faramir and Beregond in a time when hope is lost there is nothing left to lose and they act in a way that none would see them doing pre-Quest.
Courage and the hobbits and how it evolved is so interesting and the motivations on how they got to each point is such an important topic.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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elentari3018
Rohan
Aug 16, 2:20am
Post #61 of 61
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I missed that line so much which wasn't included in the movies. :p
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Yes that is a vital line i love from Frodo and we most likely know how Frodo would decide from the beginning. I mean yes, what use was it to go to Gondor? Frodo was just plain afraid but he knew in his heart what he must do even without the guidance of Gandalf.
Aragorn would've followed him "i would have have followed Frodo even to the very fires of Mordor" but obviously the Valar had other plans for the future King and how he would establish himself.
Plus the other four members all behaving bravely, including Boromir when he came back to his senses. I suppose that's why it's such a moving chapter beyond the breaking itself of the fellowship. We see everyone at their best. That is why "Breaking of the Fellowship" is one of my favorite chapters. The exchange between Frodo and Sam at the end is my favorite dialogue.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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