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Faramir as how Tolkien saw him, Faramir and Boromir and other thoughts from the Appendices and the Letters.

elentari3018
Rohan


Feb 14, 3:41am

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Faramir as how Tolkien saw him, Faramir and Boromir and other thoughts from the Appendices and the Letters. Can't Post

 
I wanted to have a seventh discussion on Faramir about anything we missed during the months that we spent on this character, specifically how Tolkien thought of him and also what we can discern from the appendices and Letters. Tolkien seemed to be caught off guard by writing him in, not intending for him in the beginning: “a new character has come on the scene” (Letter 66), unsure of his place in the story but he did explain a lot about Gondorian history to Frodo when he first met him. Tolkien does seem surprised to have him and I believe that Tolkien used him as an extension of his own self which i find very interesting. While Tolkien is a hobbit in outward characteristics, the mind and how he thought of the world was very much expressed from Faramir.

Also, spending some time to talk about the unwritten Faramir and Boromir relationship is also the purpose of this post. It was mentioned in the appendices that the brothers were five years apart but very close. Tolkien also wrote that Boromir was always the protector of Faramir and “no jealousy or rivalry had arisen between them”. (Appendix A)

1) Where else can we gather that the brothers were always close to each other?

THe contrast of their personality. The appendices also wrote that Boromir was more like Denethor in face, “fearless and strong” and prideful but Faramir “was gentle in bearing, a lover of lore and music. He welcomed Gandalf and he learned much from him that displeased Denethor.

2) What may have accounted for the contrast of personality?

3) Also, in the Letters, Faramir was mentioned more than Boromir- does Tolkien have a strong preference in Faramir because he resisted the Ring and Boromir did not? Did he mean to show the contrast of Men who listen to the Elves and Wizards and lore versus those that do not? How does it relate to Denethor and all his strategies against Sauron with him not listening to Gandalf either but rather have his own plan to deal with war against Mordor?

4) In one instance we see Faramir resisting the lure of the Ring, but Denethor was ready to use the Ring if it had crossed paths with it. Did Tolkien explicitly show the fate of those that are even tempted by the Ring – (Denethor and Boromir) and them perishing because of this?

Politics
Tolkien briefly mentions Denethor and him being “tainted with mere politics, hence his failure and his mistrust in Faramir” in letter 183. I find this very interesting because we do hear firsthand from Tolkien that BECAUSE his prime motive as the preserve Gondor, it made him stronger , feared and opposed rather than being respected just because he is doing what is right. He is doing what is for power and Boromir has some of that similarity unlike Faramir. Tolkien even goes far enough to say if Denethor were successful, he would be a tyrant, GOndor against the rest of the free peoples (Letter 183)

5) Does Tolkien intentionally kill off Denethor just because he knew that he preferred to have Aragorn come back to take the crown instead? Is this a romanticized thought and more of a fairy tale ending than what is actually practical for Middle-earth?
Granted we do not know much about politics but i feel like by Faramir relinquishing Stewardship while his family may have wanted to continue the stewardship, it made it very convenient to have a happy ending for Aragorn in which Tolkien intended to neatly wrap up the story with the “true king and elven queen” live happily ever after. It can be disputed that if there was an alternate universe how it could it been different– and letter 183 provides Tolkien’s perspective that it’ll be a tyrannical existence from Gondor which is interesting.

The importance of the Great Wave.

6) In Letter 180, Tolkien says that Faramir speaks of his vision and dream of the Great Wave that washes over Numenor. HOw significant is it that Tolkien bequeathed this dream and vision to Faramir?

Can we discuss the source of the Great Wave and its significance from the Downfall of Numenor to how it means to Tolkien personally? Anyone with more insight is welcome to discuss.

Letter 244
I love Letter 244 so much and it has been quoted throughout the weeks we have been discussing Faramir, but i enjoy it because Tolkien gives great insight to what he thought of Eowyn/Faramir and also his opinion on the characteristics of Faramir which is the reason why i think he is so great and also a bit of a underrated character.

“He had been accustomed to giving way and not giving his own opinions air, while retaining a power of command among men, such as a man may obtain who is evidently personally courageous and decisive, but also modest, fair-minded and scrupulously just, and very merciful. I think he understood Eowyn very well.”

So, I was not a Faramir/Eowyn fan or a Faramir fan till the 5th reading of LotR. I thought the speed of the relationship of Faramir and Eowyn was indeed too random and fast for my liking. However, upon reread and upon this letter, i see why they make a great match. “This tale does not deal with a period of ‘Courtly Love’ and its pretences; but with a culture more primitive (less corrupt) and nobler.”
Imagine that for the modern day. I do not think that exists nowadays but i could be wrong. 🙂

7) IN what ways do the relationship “work”? How do you foresee the Fourth Age between Faramir and Eowyn and how else do they mesh well with each other?


There is also mention of Faramir’s role in the Fourth Age alongside Aragorn:


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“Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Numenorean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored king, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was made clear that there was much fighting and in the earlier years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally remain a military commander at home in the King's absence.


8) Do you think Aragorn and Faramir would’ve worked well together in the Fourth Age? Why or why not? How would they balance each other or ruled domestically and in the greater Middle-earth?

More thoughts later, but i will leave you with these q’s and passages for now. :) It's been a pleasure to read through the Faramir discussions and I will be revisiting them again and value any comments and opinions. :)

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


Eruonen
Half-elven


Feb 14, 4:31pm

Post #2 of 17 (3023 views)
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Musings [In reply to] Can't Post

In regard to Q 2....he probably took after his mother more than his father.

3. I think you are right.
4. consequences
5. corruption leads to the fall. Aragorn is the rightful king.
6. The Great Wave and the Atlantis story were a constant presence in Tolkien's dreams. Why Faramir? Maybe because of his loyalty, fidelity....maybe Tolkien identified with him and so placed his dreams upon this character.
7. Assuming they fell in love....but in practical matters it makes sense in the royal game to have them joined.


elentari3018
Rohan


Feb 16, 3:09am

Post #3 of 17 (2970 views)
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Do we know why Tolkien dreamt of the wave so much? [In reply to] Can't Post


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6. The Great Wave and the Atlantis story were a constant presence in Tolkien's dreams.

was it mentioned why he dreamt of it so much?


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7. Assuming they fell in love....but in practical matters it makes sense in the royal game to have them joined.

Everyone thinks of it as a practicality but were they attracted to each other just because of similar circumstances? As Tolkien wrote, he believed the couple really understood each other and that this kind of courtship is nobler and had less ulterior motives involved. I would think their attraction is really how Tolkien was drawn to Edith and old fashioned love that didn't think too much about details but if you feel the love, you would go forward and make it work no matter what?

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


Eruonen
Half-elven


Feb 16, 3:17pm

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Dream discussed in his letters [In reply to] Can't Post

https://users.abo.fi/...e_faramirs_dream.htm

"......For when Faramir speaks of his private vision of the Great Wave, he speaks for me. That vision and dream has been ever with me — and has been inherited (as I only discovered recently) by one of my children [Michael]."


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Feb 16, 3:20pm)


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Feb 16, 4:26pm

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Love these. :) Will post soon! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Feb 17, 2:32am

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Some thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

1) Where else can we gather that the brothers were always close to each other?
  • It can be read 2 ways, but knowing what we already know, Boromir "taking the journey upon himself" to Rivendell might not have been pride or self-confidence alone, but also an instance of him looking out for his brother: "since the way was full of doubt and danger."
  • Faramir's grief at the vision of Boromir in his funeral boat.
  • Faramir is quite ready to compliment Boromir, apparently without resentment: " . . . being the older and the hardier (both true)."


The contrast of their personality. The appendices also wrote that Boromir was more like Denethor in face, “fearless and strong” and prideful but Faramir “was gentle in bearing, a lover of lore and music. He welcomed Gandalf and he learned much from him that displeased Denethor.

2) What may have accounted for the contrast of personality?I would think a combination of inborn personality and the interactions of their parents with those personalities which could suppress or enhance inborn characteristics up to point, along with their own choices as they grew up. But there are not enough details to really know the reasons.

3) Also, in the Letters, Faramir was mentioned more than Boromir- does Tolkien have a strong preference in Faramir because he resisted the Ring and Boromir did not? Did he mean to show the contrast of Men who listen to the Elves and Wizards and lore versus those that do not? How does it relate to Denethor and all his strategies against Sauron with him not listening to Gandalf either but rather have his own plan to deal with war against Mordor?
I think it's clear that Tolkien liked Faramir a lot more than Boromir. Also, since Faramir wasn't "planned" Tolkien may have felt Faramir needed some extra explaining. Plus, Tolkien did say he felt Faramir resembled him more than other characters (and certainly more than Boromir). This, I think, would have been because he reflected Tolkien's values of not loving war for its own sake, and not being interested in power and politics for its own sake either. This would include resisting the ring and listening to wise council from outside Gondor, like Gandalf, but those are instances reflecting the more over-arching values Tolkien held dear.

More later!




elentari3018
Rohan


Feb 18, 1:32am

Post #7 of 17 (2886 views)
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What a great resource about the Great Wave referenced [In reply to] Can't Post

thank you! will check this out.o
i'm struck again by Letter 163

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I say this about the 'heart', for I have what some might call an Atlantis complex. Possibly inherited, though my parents died too young for me to know such things about them, and too young to transfer such things by words. Inherited from me (I suppose) by one only of my children, [note: Tolkien's second son Michael.] though I did not know that about my son until recently, and he did not know it about me. I mean the terrible recurrent dream (beginning with memory) of the Great Wave, towering up, and coming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields. (I bequeathed it to Faramir.) I don't think I have had it since I wrote the 'Downfall of Númenor' as the last of the legends of the First and Second Age.

I wonder if Tolkien had a result of his insecurities and also to be orphaned so young he probably had some issues dealing with that? We do see a lot of his characters not having father and/or mother. Psychologically, do great wave represent repression or anything relating to the burden of loss?

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


elentari3018
Rohan


Feb 18, 1:39am

Post #8 of 17 (2882 views)
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I think Boromir was bequeathed the Quest from Denethor [In reply to] Can't Post

but yes, i do think he would insist upon going to Rivendell instead of Faramir and there lies some issues that Faramir may have with that esp. the guilt that must've arisen when he finds out that Boromir is dead. Boromir went because of HIS dream and we hear about that in Siege of Gondor when he also asked Denethor why he sent Boromir instead of him. I think Boromir was always the protector and this last instance of taking the dangerous Quest was also him protecting and loving his younger brother.
Their differences most likely made the brothers closer and even though we do not have a lot of details we can safely infer that (along with the appendix mention) that the brothers must've gotten along. I liked the appendix mention of how they look like in comparison to their parents.

I think while i do see Tolkien favoring Faramir, i do not think it is quite fair to kind of penalize Boromir for falling to the Ring. I believe the Ring could've tempted anyone but unfortunately it was Boromir and he was the only one in the Fellowship to have perished. It really outwardly shows that Tolkien thought by giving in temptation, a bad outcome would be given to you.
It is like Turin in the First Age with his ill choices -- he eventually also dies because of his choices. Tolkien outwardly penalizes the characters that have wrong choices. (i've been rereading CoH so he's fresh in my head about a character doing wrong and even though cursed, he was too prideful and didn't listen to others.)

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Feb 19, 5:02pm

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More thoughts-- [In reply to] Can't Post

4) In one instance we see Faramir resisting the lure of the Ring, but Denethor was ready to use the Ring if it had crossed paths with it. Did Tolkien explicitly show the fate of those that are even tempted by the Ring – (Denethor and Boromir) and them perishing because of this?

Actually, depending on one's definition of temptation, Galadriel was definitively tempted, but "passed the test" and successfully resisted. It's very possible Gandalf and others were tempted as well, but also didn't succumb. Temptation is a funny thing, and there are not only degrees of the thing itself, but also all sorts of different degrees and types of resistance. Martin Luther said "Temptations, of course, cannot be avoided, but because we cannot prevent the birds from flying over our heads, there is no need that we should let them nest in our hair."
I think Tolkien isn't disapproving of temptation itself, but of character flaws that cause someone to have inadequate or even no resistance at all (like Gollum).




Felagund
Rohan


Feb 19, 9:06pm

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Grishnákh? [In reply to] Can't Post

In some respects, Grishnákh qualifies here. Tricksied into thinking that either Merry or Pippin had the One Ring, Grishnákh risks everything to get the two hobbits away from the doomed Isengarder-dominated warband, and pays with his own life. Sure, he was probably planning on abducting them anyway, as his interests hardly coincided with those of his rival, Uglúk. But once Pippin made an assumption that Grishnákh knew about the One Ring, he and Merry taunted and tempted the orc to the point where he snarls "Have you got it - either of you?" ('The Uruk-hai', LotR).

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Feb 19, 11:10pm

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Yes, no resistance at all. [In reply to] Can't Post

In fact, more or less charging at it full tilt!
I think there's some debate as to whether Grishnakh knew it was the or even a ring, although he was certainly aware that Hobbits possessed some treasure that Sauron wanted desperately.



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Feb 19, 11:10pm)


elentari3018
Rohan


Feb 21, 12:58am

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We do see Gollum falling to his death at the end [In reply to] Can't Post

And it's because he falls to temptation at the end like how Boromir did by acting upon his temptation. So my question is actually should be if you act upon your temptation, you clearly get penalized or the result would be death (Boromir, Gollum). Even Grishnak's result is death.

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


(This post was edited by elentari3018 on Feb 21, 12:58am)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Feb 23, 5:46pm

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Faramir yielding the Stewardship [In reply to] Can't Post


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5) Does Tolkien intentionally kill off Denethor just because he knew that he preferred to have Aragorn come back to take the crown instead? Is this a romanticized thought and more of a fairy tale ending than what is actually practical for Middle-earth?
Granted we do not know much about politics but i feel like by Faramir relinquishing Stewardship while his family may have wanted to continue the stewardship, it made it very convenient to have a happy ending for Aragorn in which Tolkien intended to neatly wrap up the story with the “true king and elven queen” live happily ever after.


Such a great question. In my mind, there are 3 answers:
1. Moving through the plot of LOTR with all the force and inevitability of Grond (but good not bad) is the “true king and elven queen” juggernaut, and it seems to me that everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, must yield to that ending. So yes, Denethor had to go, and Faramir had to willingly surrender his office for the good of the realm and because of ancient obligations to the kingship that his ancestors fudged over. Which also leads to:

2. A strong theme of LOTR that dictates many outcomes is the need to set the world right again: it's Gandalf's mission, Aragorn's mission, and Frodo's mission. It spills over in other areas, such as the Gimli-Legolas friendship showing that old enemies can become friends as they were before they were estranged. And Faramir needs to set right the bad decision, highlighted by Malbeth the Seer, that his ancestors made in refusing to allow Arvedui to hold the crowns of both Arnor and Gondor since that unity was needed to fight off evil.

3. Another theme of LOTR is how ultimately what is old will be, or must be, pruned to allow new and more vital growth. The Elves must depart, the old rulers like Denethor and Theoden must be killed off to make way for younger rulers, and old evils like the Ring, the Nazgul, and Sauron must be squashed. So given the thematic construction of LOTR, I would say Denethor never had a chance of surviving. Fortunately Faramir did.

7) IN what ways do the relationship “work”? How do you foresee the Fourth Age between Faramir and Eowyn and how else do they mesh well with each other?
I'm with you in thinking in my early reads that Faramir + Eowyn was too rushed and unrealistic and thus a weak part of the whole story. I came around gradually to seeing it as something that could indeed work because of their temperaments and extreme circumstances. As for the 4th Age, my gut sense is that they're equal partners in restoring Ithilien. Eowyn has proven that she is a doer, and she's not going to host tea parties at home with white gloves while Faramir does the heavy lifting. Their differences would still remain: Faramir will likely always prefer history and intellectual pursuits more than she does, but I think given their mutual respect they would have a happy marriage as well as a successful professional partnership in rejuvenating Ithilien. (How anyone can cleanse Minas Morgul of evil is beyond my imagination, but I'll take Tolkien's word for it that there's a way.)


elentari3018
Rohan


Feb 25, 4:03am

Post #14 of 17 (2425 views)
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That is one of my favorite points and themes in LotR. [In reply to] Can't Post


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3. Another theme of LOTR is how ultimately what is old will be, or must be, pruned to allow new and more vital growth. The Elves must depart, the old rulers like Denethor and Theoden must be killed off to make way for younger rulers, and old evils like the Ring, the Nazgul, and Sauron must be squashed. So given the thematic construction of LOTR, I would say Denethor never had a chance of surviving. Fortunately Faramir did.

How Tolkien intentionally has the older rulers time run out and for the younger men to come forth to lead is shown to be very prominent in the story. Denethor did not have chance of surviving but it does also kind of conveniently give way to the King since we know that he did not want a King to return to Gondor. But what if he had lived? Would there have been more tension to the story and Tolkien could not resolve "Steward and the King" chapter as neatly as he did?
Another detail omitted entirely is how Gondor dealt with the Steward who took his own life and if we had more details, would it be so easy for the transfer of power?
Regarding Aragorn and Faramir working together i think they have different temperaments and since Aragorn saved Faramir, that is always Faramir is indebted to Aragorn. How they worked together is that Faramir would've known more about GOndorian policies, and their peoples and Aragorn would help make policy?

I agree about your piont about Faramir and Eowyn- they most likely worked hard to restore Ithilien as it once was.


Quote
And Faramir needs to set right the bad decision, highlighted by Malbeth the Seer, that his ancestors made in refusing to allow Arvedui to hold the crowns of both Arnor and Gondor since that unity was needed to fight off evil.

I didn't know about this part- this is also in Appendix A?

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


CuriousG
Half-elven


Feb 25, 3:16pm

Post #15 of 17 (2374 views)
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Malbeth the Seer [In reply to] Can't Post

I am a sucker for ignored prophecies, so Malbeth from Appdx A sticks in my mind:


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‘Arvedui was indeed the last king, as his name signifies. It is said that this name was given to him at his birth by Malbeth the Seer, who said to his father: “Arvedui you shall call him, for he will be the last in Arthedain. Though a choice will come to the Dúnedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, then much sorrow and many lives of men shall pass, until the Dúnedain arise and are united again.”

‘In Gondor also one king only followed Eärnil. It may be that if the crown and the sceptre had been united, then the kingship would have been maintained and much evil averted.



Previously the Appdx says this about Arvedui's claim:


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The claim was rejected. In this Pelendur, the Steward of King Ondoher, played the chief part.



(This post was edited by CuriousG on Feb 25, 3:17pm)


elentari3018
Rohan


Feb 26, 2:53am

Post #16 of 17 (2297 views)
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I'm sure Faramir knew this part of history [In reply to] Can't Post

so believed that the King should return to his rightful place then. It shows in the book he was more respectful of Gondor's history and wanted Gondor as she once was in its glory and power.
Thanks for quoting that- that is very interesting.

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


elentari3018
Rohan


Mar 30, 3:04am

Post #17 of 17 (1427 views)
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more on Letter 244 that popped up randomly in another site i follow [In reply to] Can't Post


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I think you misunderstand Faramir. He was daunted by his father: not only in the ordinary way of a family with a stern proud father of great force of character, but as a Númenorian before the chief of the one surviving Númenorian state. He was motherless and sisterless (Éowyn was also motherless), and had a ‘bossy’ brother. He had been accustomed to giving way and not giving his own opinions air, while retaining a power of command among men, such as a man may obtain who is evidently personally courageous and decisive, but also modest, fair-minded and scrupulously just, and very merciful. I think he understood Éowyn very well.


I wonder at Tolkien's description of Boromir being a "bossy" brother. Would Denethor also share those qualities? Also, Tolkien justifying that Faramir and Eowyn being a good match is interesting to me. He seems himself to be drawn to those that have similar background in terms of parents passing already. I think this was mentioned before but this importance in having his characters fall in love is quite critical as it relates to Tolkien personally.

If Faramir was daunted by Denethor, how would his relationship with Borormir differ if Boromir was bossy but was also described as protecting Faramir? It is all conjecture on how the three men's relationship could've been and i've seen good portrayals in fanfic that saw them get along in a distant kind of way esp. Faramir and Denethor. More analysis can go into thinking how the brothers may have been towards each other given that Faramir probably did not feel jealousy and Boromir "protected" his younger brother though he was bossy so he must be in charge.

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK

 
 

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