Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Character of Saruman #2 - Career as a Power
First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

oliphaunt
Lorien


Jun 6 2023, 11:42am

Post #1 of 63 (2402 views)
Shortcut
Character of Saruman #2 - Career as a Power Can't Post

The Ring Goes South and Journey in the Dark

Saurman's betrayal has effects felt far away from Orthanc. As the Nine Walkers head south, they reach Hollin where they are spied upon by a flock of Crebain. Then they approach the Redhorn Gate, a pass through the Misty Mountains. They were attempting this path at the behest of Aragorn, who prevailed in his debate with Gandalf regarding the choice of attempting to cross over Caradhras, or underneath in Moria. Aragorn explains why crossing further south into Rohan is not an option:


Quote
Further south there are no passes, till one comes to the Gap of Rohan. I do not trust that way since your news of Saruman


Their fear of Saurman is greater than the risk of Caradhras, and even Moria. After being driven off the mountain pass by snow, the Nine enter into the tunnels of Moria. Only Eight emerge into Dimrill Dale, Gandalf the Grey having fallen from the Bridge fighting the Balrog. It appears that Saruman of Many Colours has indirectly helped the Enemy.


The Mirror of Galadriel

Having reached Lothlorien, the Company meets with Galadriel. She says:


Quote
I it was who summoned the White Council. And if my designs had not gone amiss, it would have been governed by Gandalf the Grey, and then mayhap things would have gone otherwise.



"Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" give more history of the White Council:


Quote
And Curunír (that was Saruman the White) was chosen to be their chief, for he had most studied the devices of Sauron of old. Galadriel indeed had wished that Mithrandir should be the Lead of the Council, and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was grown great; but Mithrandir refused the office, since he would have no ties and no allegiance, save to those who sent him, and he would abide in no place nor be subject to any summons.


1. Galadriel makes it clear that she did not want Saruman the lead the White Council. Why? What did she know, or suspect? Would Galadriel have seen somewhat of Saruman in the Mirror?

2. Saruman was the most learned in the White Council about Sauron, and was proud of himself. Sounds a bit like another character who was also smart and learned and proud of himself. His name begins with a "D" and he thought he could take on Sauron mentally. Any ideas?

After traveling by boat from Lothlorien down Anduin, the Company passes the Argonath and reaches Tol Brandir. Aragorn asks Frodo to draw Sting, and the sword shows a faint light.

The Departure of Boromir

As it turned out, Sting did sense Orcs were not too far away. Frodo and Sam flee, Boromir dies fighting a group of Orcs, and Merry and Pippin are captured. Aragorn examines the Orcs that Borormir killed, and realizes that these Orcs are something new:


Quote
Upon their shields they bore a strange device: a small white hand in the center of a black field; on the front of their iron helms was set an S-rune, wrought of some white metal.
'I have not seen these tokens before,' said Aragorn. 'What do they mean?'
'S is for Sauron,' said Gimli. 'That is easy to read.'
'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use Elf-runes.'
'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken,' said Aragorn. 'And he does not use white. The Orcs in the service of Barad-dur use the sign of the Red Eye.' He stood for a moment in thought. 'S is for Saruman, I guess,' he said at length. 'There is evil afoot in Isengard, and the West is no longer safe. It is as Gandalf feared: by some means the traitor Saurman has had news of our journey. It is likely too that he knows of Gandalf's fall. Pursuers from Moria may have escaped the vigilance of Lorien, or they may have avoided that land and come to Isengard by other paths. Orcs travel fast. But Saruman has many ways of learning news. Do you remember the birds?'


The remaining three members of the Company have confirmation that Saruman is indeed the force behind their troubles. Gandalf fell in Moria, Boromir is dead, and Merry and Pippin captured by Saruman's Orcs. Because of Saruman, Aragon faces the choice of following Frodo and Sam or trying to rescue Merry and Pippin.

Quote
'I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him to the end but if I seek him now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captive to torment and death. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fare of the Bearer is in my hands no longer.


3. Saruman has a hand (white on a black field) in Aragorn's decision. Previously Aragorn was torn about what to do. Aragorn makes his decision based on compassion for Merry and Pippin, not because he believes it's the best way forward to destroy the Ring or defeat Sauron. Did Saruman inadvertently do him a favor?

The Riders of Rohan

Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas travel on foot into Rohan, pursuing the Orc band towards Orthanc. They discuss the loyalties of Rohan, and Aragorn claims:


Quote
'I do not know what has happened here of late, nor in what mind the Rohirrim may now be between the traitor Saruman and the threat of Sauron. They have long been the friends of the people of Gondor...they will not love the Orcs.'


Encountering Eomer and his eored, Aragorn makes his first declaration as the heir of Isildur, learns that the Rohirrim have killed the Orc band, and hears from Eomer about Saruman. Eomer says he suspects "a league between Orthanc and the Dark Tower" and goes on to describe the Orcs as coming from both Saruman and Mordor. He reveals that Gandalf had come to warn Theoden about Saruman, and ask for help, but was rejected by Theoden who at that time still considered Saruman a friend of Rohan. Eomer has the opposite opinion of Saruman:


Quote
'But at this time, our chief concern is with Saruman. He has claimed lordship over all this land, and there has been war between us for many months. He has taken Orcs into his service, and Wolf-riders, and evil Men, and he has closed the Gap against us, so that we are likely to be beset both east and west.
'It is ill dealing with such a foe; he is a wizard both cunning and dwimmer-crafty, having many guises. He walks here and there, they say, as an old man hooded and cloaked, very like to Gandalf, as many now recall. His spies slip through every net, and his birds of ill omen are abroad in the sky. I do not know how it will all end, and my heart misgives me; for it seems to me that his friends do not all dwell in Isengard. But if you come to the king's house, you shall see for yourself.'


Eomer sounds wise here, as well as practical. He's confirmed that the pesky birds were Saruman's eyes. He points out that Saruman appears "very like to Gandalf." Eomer also implies that Saruman has support within the king's house.

4. Are they "very like", or is Saruman choosing to mimic Gandalf as one of his "many guises"? Why? Is imitation unwitting flattery?

We know that Gandalf has a relationship with the Eagles. Radagast was skilled at communicating with birds, and used them to watch the enemy.

5. Is Saruman's ability to use birds as spies a similar skill, but corrupted? Are the Crebain themselves evil, or were they neutral and being used by Saruman? What about Saruman's other "friends"? Clearly Eomer is using the word "friends" ironically. Are the "friends" all evil or are they being controlled by Saruman (or a combination?)

Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas borrow horses from Eomer and ride to the eaves of Fangorn, where they make camp.


Quote
Suddenly, Gimli looked up, and there just on the edge of the firelight stood and old bent man, leaning on a staff and wrapped in a great cloak; his wide-brimmed hat was pulled down over his eyes. Gimi sprang up, too amazed for the moment to cry out, though at once the thought flashed into his mind that Saruman had caught them.


The old man does not speak, and vanishes when Aragorn approaches. Gimli thinks it is Saruman, or a projection of him. But Aragorn says the old man wore a hat, not a hood as per Eomer's description.


The Uruk-Hai

Next, we get an Orcish perspective on Saruman. Merry and Pippin are captives of a mixed group of Orcs from Mordor and Isengard who argue about the fate of the hobbits. One Orc says:


Quote
Uglúk u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob bubhosh skai


Tolkien's last comments on this, drawn from "Words, Phrases and Passages", translate this phrase as


Quote
Uglúk to torture (chamber) with stinking Saruman-filth. Dung-heap. Skai!



Apparently the Orcs of the Red Eye are not fans of Saruman or his boys. Uglúk, on the other hand, only has praise for Saruman:


Quote
We are the fighting Uruk-Hai!...We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand, the Hand that gives us man's-flesh to eat.

Grishnakh, out of Mordor, disagrees:


Quote
I Grishnakh say this: Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool. But the Great Eye is on him.


6. Galadriel didn't think Saruman the wisest of the wizards, but he's getting plenty of confirmation from the Uruk-hai. Did Saruman crave praise that much?
Was Sauron, as Grishnakh says, on to Saruman's game?


Fortunately the hobbits are able to escape during the attack by Eomer's soldiers.

7. How did the Isengard orcs get north to Parth Galen without being noticed in Rohan? Eomer found them pretty fast when they came back south.

8. Did tension between the Isengard/Mordor orcs serve to help the hobbits escape? Is Grishnakh's opinion likely widely held in Lugberz? Did Sauron overestimate his control over Saruman?

8b.In our discussion last week, NoWiz included a excerpt from "John Brown's Body" that pointed out how military planning fails when it does not account for the behaviour of soldiers. Did Saruman failure to understand the motivation and actions of orcs?

Treebeard

Merry and Pippin encounter Treebeard, and tell him about their adventures. Treebeard says that he has not "troubled about the Great Wars" which "concern Elves and Men" and are the "business of Wizards". He is however, very upset about Saruman and delivers a long speech that offers a wealth of historical information:


Quote
'But Saruman now! Saruman is a neighbour: I cannot overlook him...Saruman is a Wizard, more than that I cannot say. I do not know the history of Wizards. They appeared first after the Great Ships came over the Sea; but if they came with the Ships I never can tell. Saruman was reckoned great amoung them, I believe. He gave up wandering about and minding the affairs of Men and Elves, some time ago - you would call it a very long time ago; and he settled down at Angrenost, or Isengard as the Men of Rohan call it. He was very quiet to begin with, but his fame began to grow. He was chosen to he head of the White Council, they day; but that did not turn out too well. I wonder now if even then Saruman was not turning to evil ways. But at any rate he used to give no trouble to his neighbours. I used to talk to him. There was time when he was always walking about in my woods. He was polite in those days, always asking my leave (at least when he met me); and always eager to listen. I told him many things that he never would have found out by himself; but he never repaid me in like kind. I cannot remember that he ever told me anything. And he got more and more like that; his face, as I remember it - I have not seen it for many a day - became like windows in a stone wall; windows with shutters inside.
I think that I now understand what he is up to. He is plotting to become a Power. He has a mind of metal and wheels; and he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment. And now it is clear that he is a black traitor. He has taken up with foul folk, with the Orcs. Brm, hoom! Worse than that; he has been doing something to them; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!


Treebeard resolves to raise the Ents and go with the hobbits to Isengard and deal with Saruman. Before they go, the Ents hold an Enmoot. Merry and Pippin spend some time with Bregalad, who tells them about his experience with Saruman's agents:


Quote
'Birds used to flock there. I like birds, even when they chatter; and the rowan had enough (berries) and to spare. But the birds became unfriendly and greedy and tore at the trees, and threw the fruit down and did not eat it. Then the Orcs same with axes and cut down my trees.'


9. Apparently Treebeard sees in hindsight the same thing as Galadriel. Did Saruman begin to turn when "He gave up wandering about and minding the affairs of Men and Elves" or when "his fame began to grow", or both, or something else? What does "plotting to become a Power" mean? He's already a Maiar, does it mean he wants to be something more?

10. Was Saruman's politeness real or feigned when he had a cordial relationship with Treebeard? Is Treebeards use of "neighbour" important? Does Treebeard only care about what happens within a certain geographic distance? Is Treebeard speaking for the author when he says "a mind of metal and wheels; and he does not care for growing things"?

Saruman is a failure as a steward of Middle Earth. He corrupts birds, and sends Orcs to cut down trees.

11. Why is Saruman's genetic engineering worse that just associating with Orcs? Is is because he is tampering with the created order? Is that the sort of thing that Tolk, er, Treebeard would have found revolting?


The White Rider

When the trio actually meets Gandalf in Fangorn, he confirms that the vision was NOT him, so Gimli was right.

Quote
'Yes, I am white now,' said Gandalf. 'Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been.'


Gandalf tells the companions that Merry and Pippin are safe:


Quote
'For the Enemy has failed - so far. Thanks to Saruman.'
'Then is not Saruman a traitor?' said Gimli.
'Indeed yes,' said Gandalf. 'Doubly. And is that not strange? Nothing that we have endured of late has seemed to grievous as the treason of Isengard...between them our enemies have contrived only to bring Merry and Pippin with marvelous speed; and in the nick of time, to Fangorn, where otherwise they never would have come at all!'


He explains that Sauron does not know if Saruman has captured the hobbits, or even the Ring, so he has to watch Insengard as well as Minas Tirith. As for Saruman, Gandalf explains that Isengard can not take on Mordor without the Ring, which is now beyond Saruman's reach. He hints that Fangorn (Treebeard) is angry and that:


Quote
The coming of the hobbits and the tidings that they brought have spilled it; it will soon be running like a flood; but its tide is turned against Saruman and the axes of Isengard.



12. Is Saruman "inadvertently helping" a theme? Is there a higher power involved in making that happen? Did Saruman underestimate the Ents or overestimate his own powers?

Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas set out for Rohan and see smoke over Isengard.

The King of the Golden Hall

At Edoras, Theoden, showing his age and prompted by Wormtongue, greets Gandalf suspiciously. Gandalf the White doesn't waste much time, and uses his enhanced powers to free Theoden from whatever ill is troubling him. The name of Saruman is not mentioned until Gandalf confronts Wormtongue about stalking Eowyn:


Quote
'Down on your belly! How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long you have watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps.'


13. Can we add human trafficking to Saruman's many offenses?

Gandalf reveals to Theoden that Eomer's timely battle with the Orcs kept the hobbits, and their knowledge, out of Saruman's control.

Helm's Deep

Theoden leads the Rohirrim towards the fords of Isen. Along the way, Gandalf rides off alone after sending Theoden straight to Helm's Deep. At Helm's Deep a terrible battle between Rohan and the host of Isengard ensues. Orcs know all the ways to get into Helm's Deep. Saruman had reconnoitered the fastness and provided them with explosives. Nevertheless, the Orcs are defeated when Theoden rides out as a last resort, and Gandalf arrives with Erkenbrand, reinforcements, and a forest of Huorns.


Quote
Between the Dike and the eaves of that nameless wood only two open furlongs lay. There now cowered the proud hosts of Saruman, in terror of the king and in terror of the trees


14. Gandalf also knows how to make gunpowder, but appears to only use it to entertain hobbits on summer evenings. Does this mean it is the use, not the tool, that is wrong?

15. How good/bad were Saruman's military expertise and decisions? If he and Sauron had been "working together" instead of Saruman trying to get the Ring for himself would the outcome have been different? How useful was the Palantir to Saruman?


The Road to Isengard

After the battle of Helm's Deep, Gandalf tells Theoden:


Quote
'I wish to speak with Saruman, as soon as may be now,' said Gandalf,'and since he has done you great injury, it would be fitting if you were there.'


Gandalf, Theoden, Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas prepare to ride to Isengard. In the meantime, Erkenbrand deals with the men who surrendered from Saruman's army:


Quote
'Help now to repair the evil in which you have joined,' said Erkenbrand;'and afterwards you shall take an oath never again to pass the Fords of Isen in arms, nor to march with the enemies of Men; and then you shall go free back to your land. For you have been deluded by Saruman. Many of you have got death as the reward of your trust in him: but had you conquered, little better would your wages have been.'
The men of Dunland were amazed; for Saruman had told them that the men of Rohan were cruel and burned their captives alive.


16. Were the Dunlendings,a bit like the birds, less culpable since they were swayed by Saruman's powers? Would it be easier to control birds or men? Is Erkenbrand's compassion and mercy, not unlike Aragorn's in deciding to track the orcs who captured Merry and Pippin, another enduring theme in LOTR?

Arriving at Isengard, the once fecund valley has become a sad, thorny wasteland.


Quote
No green thing grew there in the latter days of Saruman. The roads were paved with stone-flags, dark and hard; and beside their borders instead of trees there marched long lines of pillars, some of marble, some of copper and iron, joined by heavy chains.


They reach the fabulous tower itself:


Quote
A strong place, and wonderful was Isengard, and long it had been beautiful; and there great lords had dwelt, the wardens of Gondor upon the West, and wise men that watched the stars. But Saruman had slowly shaped it to his shifting purposes, and made it better, as he thought, being deceived - for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former widsom, and which fondly he imagined were his own, came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery, of that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dur, the Dark Tower.



Although the tower stands, it is flooded and everything surrounding in ruins. To the delight of Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas, and the amazement of Theoden, two hobbits appear to be in charge of what remains of Isengard. Merry greets the riders and tells them:


Quote
'The Lord Saruman is within; but at the moment he is closeted with one Wormtongue, or doubtless he would be here to welcome such honorable guests.'


Flotsam and Jetsam

Saruman yet again unwittingly aided the hobbits, who were pleased to find barrels of Hornblower pipe-weed from the Shire.

The hobbits tell their friends about the events at Isengard, describing the Orcs and Men in the large army that left for Rohan. Merry realizes that some of the men look very like the Southerner who the hobbits encountered in Bree early in their journey.

This makes two connections between Saruman and the Shire.

17. Was Saruman's interest in the Shire due to Gandalf's interest in the Shire? Is he covering all angles, or does he realize that Gandalf knows something that Saruman doesn't?

18. Why did Saruman take up smoking a pipe? Was this "a little copy" of Gandalf? Does he ever have an original idea?

The friends' conversation about Saruman continues, with Merry saying:


Quote
'I don't know what Saruman thought was happening; but anyway he did not know how to deal with it. His wizardry may have been falling off lately, of course; but anyway I think he had not much grit, not much plain courage alone in a tight place without a lot of slaves and machines and things, if you know what I mean. Very different from old Gandalf. I wonder if his face was not all along mainly due to his cleverness in settling at Isengard.'
'No,' said Aragorn,' Once he was as great as his fame made him. His knowledge was deep, his thought was subtle, and his hands marvellously skilled; and he had a power over the minds of others. That power he certainly still keeps. There are not many in Middle-Earth that I should say were safe, if they were left alone to talk with him, even now when he has suffered a defeat.'



Pointing out Sarumans strengths shows har far he has fallen.

19. Did he had greater responsibility as he came from a higher place, with more'gifts'?

The hobbits go on at length describing the Ents attack on Orthanc. Saruman is portrayed by Pippin as being very much afraid of the Ents, who are not at all subtle:


Quote
'He seems to have been at the gates when we arrived: I expect he came to watch his splendid army march out. When the Ends broke their way in, he left in a hurry. They did not spot him at first. But the night had opened out, and there was a great light of stars, quite enough for Ents to see by, and suddenly Quickbeam gave a cry "The tree-killer, the tree-killer!" Quickbeam is a gentle creature but he hates Saruman all the more fiercely for that; his people suffered cruelly from orc-axes.'


Pippin goes on to describe how Saruman attacked the Ents with fire, which drives them mad with fury. The Ents are unable to break into Orthanc tower itself, since "some wizardry is in it; perhaps, older and stronger than Saruman's" At that time, Treebeard directs the Ents to flood Isengard, stranding Saruman. Wormtongue arrives, and, seeing the destruction, wants to leave, but Treebeard gives him the choice to wait with the Ents for Theoden, or cross the flood to join Saruman.

The hobbits don't seem to understand how great Saruman was before his fall. But then, they don't seem to "get" Gandalf either even after he defeats the Balrog and appears as Gandalf the White. Gandalf, Aragorn, Galadriel, and the Ents all hint that Wizards are, and should be, held to a rather higher standard.


20. How about readers? Without the backstory of the Maiar, one might think of Saruman (and Gandalf) as rather clever Men. We know they are "more", but does, or should, that change the prism for viewing wizards? Gandalf talks about his responsibilities and obligations. Did Saruman ever think of himself in that way?

21. Would you say that Saruman's treachery is as bad, if less effective, and more recent, than Sauron's?

22. Was Saruman's wizardry "falling off"? Is the "wizardry" of Orthanc stronger than Saruman's? Were wizards less powerful in ME than they were before incarnation?

23. Gandalf's power certainly increased, if you compare his difficulty in opening Moria gate to his mastery at Helm's Deep. Was the title "The White" available after Saruman rejected whiteness for "Many Colours"? Or would Gandalf have become "The White" regardless?

24. It's common in Tolkien analysis to see the Maiar likened to angels. Is this a good way to describe the wizards or don't they equate to angels? How about demi-gods? Or a mash-up?

25. Saruman is associated with machinery in a very negative way. In LOTR is technology a kind of magic? Can it be used for good as well as evil? Saruman studied the Rings and the Palantiri. Are Palantiri and Rings of Power a kind of technology?

26.(bonus) What about the technology in my Ring Camera? Is it safe for me to wield as long as it's not The One Ring Camera? Was the The One Ring Camera above The Black Gate? Is The One Ring Camera similar to the Eye of Sauron?


*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2023, 4:07pm

Post #2 of 63 (2140 views)
Shortcut
Some thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Firstly, thank you oliphaunt for an account that shows just how much of the events of Books II & III would be different had it not been for both Saruman's efforts, and what others feel they have to do to deny him opportunities.


The impression I'm getting is that Saruman is presented as bad not only because:


In Reply To
Saruman is a failure as a steward of Middle Earth. He corrupts birds, and sends Orcs to cut down trees.

(Excellent point I think BTW)

And nor is that he is after the One Ring and therefore seizing ultimate power - an inversion of what we think wizards are for.


I think we're being presented wth a Saruman who is in dangerous error fro another reason you put so well, oliphaunt:


In Reply To
Saruman is associated with machinery in a very negative way. In LOTR is technology a kind of magic?

IIRC Tolkien is in explicit agreement about this - in his letter to Milton Waldman 1951 (appears as Letter #131), he comes up with the summary that his work is about "Fall, Mortality and the Machine" : "Machine" being plans and devices for domination (whether magical or science and engineering) "bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills".

So magic and technology are alike - in their potential to offer shortcuts to wrongful goals, if not in their underpinnings in physics (or metaphysics).

And yes, therefore that means Saruman's creation of the orc-men (or whatever they are) is the especial abomination Treebeard says it is:

Quote
He has taken up with foul folk, with the Orcs. Brm, hoom! Worse than that; he has been doing something to them; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!


It is, as you suggest oliphaunt, a perversion of the natural order, and that in itself is bad in Tolkien's book (in my understanding, bad in both senses of "in Tolkien's book").

Middle-earth is a very hierarchical place; whether that reflects the medieval flavour of the tales, the Edwardian Imperial-British culture around Tolkien as he grew up; or something in Tolkien himself. Perhaps it would not go too far to say that all the Tolkien villians - Melkor, Feanor, Sauron, Saruman are rebels against the right and proper order of things? "What is evil but good that has tried to rise above its station?" Tolkien might perhaps say.

Secondly note that wicked men can choose to be otherwise (or are maybe more lied-too than wicked, like the Dunlendings we see forgiven in your selected quotes, or Sam's thoughts about the dead Man in Ithilien). Orcs (as far as we know) are stuck being evil. Dooming people - or even perhaps their entire lineage from now on to evil - is not a nice way to behave.

All the more so when we're now presented with orcs as characters, rather than a mass of indistinguishable monsters. Ugluk, I think shows loyalty (to Saruman), courage, some skill in managing an unruly command. He dies bravely, even heroically. (I think this sort of thing gave Tolkien some problems later that might be best described as feigned-theological. But that's a whole different subject)

Another of your quotations, oliphaunt, struck me as a new way of Saruman being presented as soemone who is wrong in method, and not just in goals.


Quote
'I don't know what Saruman thought was happening; but anyway he did not know how to deal with it. His wizardry may have been falling off lately, of course; but anyway I think he had not much grit, not much plain courage alone in a tight place without a lot of slaves and machines and things, if you know what I mean. Very different from old Gandalf. I wonder if his fame was not all along mainly due to his cleverness in settling at Isengard.'

'No,' said Aragorn,' Once he was as great as his fame made him. His knowledge was deep, his thought was subtle, and his hands marvellously skilled; and he had a power over the minds of others. That power he certainly still keeps. There are not many in Middle-Earth that I should say were safe, if they were left alone to talk with him, even now when he has suffered a defeat.'


Note that the one point of Merry's that Aragorn does not rebut is "I think he had not much grit, not much plain courage alone in a tight place without a lot of slaves and machines and things, if you know what I mean. Very different from old Gandalf."

"Grit" is a potentially very interesting choice of word.


Quote
Grit was the ability to put one foot in front of the other for as long as necessary. To tread ceaselessly in the prints of the man in front. To know when to take the lead yourself and to be sufficient to that moment. And above all, not to complain. ... Grit was ingrained in the imperial generations of Britain from an early age - the boarding school system churned out generation after generation of boys allegedly full of the stuff - and it was considered to be the moral substance which underpinned Britain's martial success, its zeal for exploration and its Empire-building: its prolific pinking of the map.

'Mountains of the Mind' by Robert Macfarlane

[I have quoted this before in a post Tolkien's Hobbit travellers in the tradition of Imperial-era travel adventures, suggesting is that it's fun to look at Tolkien as a writer in the tradition of Imperial-era travel adventure



(Macfarlane's examples of 'grit' aren't exhaustive, just those that would be most important to an explorer, or a walking-into-Mordor hobbit. Obviously Merry is not criticising Saruman's inabilty to cope with a long march! It's his lack of personal resources 'in a tight place'.)

So potentially, Merry is seeing Saruman cooped up in his tower, the wooden-blocks on maps sort of general we've discussed a bit (last week and in the Denethor discussion).

But if we (also) have here a criticism of Saruman's lack of proper British Public-school behaviour in his methods -- or this is being offered as a metaphor of him being a bad character in other ways -- then that is interesting too.







~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2023, 4:44pm

Post #3 of 63 (2142 views)
Shortcut
Bonus unlocked ---Inventors of Middle-earth: One-ring Doorbell [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
26.(bonus) What about the technology in my Ring Camera? Is it safe for me to wield as long as it's not The One Ring Camera? Was the The One Ring Camera above The Black Gate? Is The One Ring Camera similar to the Eye of Sauron?


In which I'm afraid I'm going to continue 'Inventors of Middle-earth - Inspired by Mallory Ortburg's "Two Monks" series on The Toast (see http://the-toast.net/...wo-monks-invent-art/ )

Last time Narvia and Celebrimbor invented the Gates of Moria. Now Narvi has come to show Celebrimbor a whole new idea.

CELEBRIMBOR: Oh, greetings Narvi - what have you been working on recently?


NARVI: Something involving rings...


CELEBRIMBOR: Gosh. Well now that's a strange co-incidence because I...oh, you've invented a ...doorbell?


NARVI: Not just 'a doorbell', my friend - a One-ring doorbell. Look
He rings it Ding-dong!. He rings it again - [nothing!]


CELEBRIMBOR: Oh, that's a shame. It's broken.


NARVI: No! It is designed only to work once! Clever eh?


CELEBRIMBOR: I don't think that I...


NARVI: Well, think about it like this. How often, Celebrimbor, have you been busy inventing when there's some dratted interruption from the doorbell? Yes, me too! So, how would it be if you had the perfect excuse: 'so sorry old chap I didn't know you had come to visit my doorbell must be broken I'll get it fixed right away...'


CELEBRIMBOR: But wouldn't people just expect me to do something about the broken doorbell?


NARVI: Ah well you see, that's the clever thing - you don't have to! Each One-ring doorbell includes a tiny bit of palantir. So when it rings, it sends a signal to say that it rang, and now needs replacing. We send someone along to replace it each time -- it's called a 'subscription model'. Nothing you have to do! Even paying is convenient! No need to be interrupted by workdwarves: each month you just put some gold pieces in a secure tin we provide, and that's how you pay the bill for the replacement one-ring doorbells. Welcome to the world of 'bill tin obselesence'!


CELEBRIMBOR: But won't you have to spend all your time on the road, fixing new doorbells?

NARVI: Oh no - I have a young dwarf to do that bit - have you met Primi?


CELEBRIMBOR: Primi....Primi?...oh you mean Ami's son?

NARVI: That's right, Ami's son Primi. He'll do all the delivery and returns stuff.


CELEBRIMBOR: Hmm I hope you don't mind but I have to say that seems like a rather...ruthless... business scheme for a Dwarf to have thought up.

NARVI: Oh, I didn't think of that bit, that was a Man - well a Beorning, to be exact. Have you ever met Jeff Beeswax?


CELEBRIMBOR: Just one more question. Once Primi has come and replaced my doorbell, how would I know it is working again?



NARVI: Oh that's easy , he'll just ring on it to test it...

CELEBRIMBOR [is about to point out the flaw, and then can't decide whether it's a bug or a feature. Then his doorbell rings ] So sorry old chap I will have to get that - it will be that dratted Man from Porlock again. Tell Primi to sign me up!


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


oliphaunt
Lorien


Jun 6 2023, 8:12pm

Post #4 of 63 (2124 views)
Shortcut
Pleased as can be, sign me up [In reply to] Can't Post

Delighted I was able to encourage you to document this important moment in the history of Middle Earh.

And glad to discover what those pesky dwarves were doing hanging about the door to Bag End around tea-time. Can finally put to rest the rumors about "adventures" with that disreputable trouble-making wizard fellow. It would be just like a Took to have a new-fangled door-ringer without a thought about the cost.

I did quite well with my impromptu out-loud reading of this dramatic scene, right up to the reveal of Mr. Beeswax, at which point I lost my gravitas. He's a busy fellow, getting involved in everyone's business.


*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***

(This post was edited by oliphaunt on Jun 6 2023, 8:20pm)


oliphaunt
Lorien


Jun 6 2023, 8:19pm

Post #5 of 63 (2130 views)
Shortcut
Ugluk's lineage? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote
Ugluk, I think shows loyalty (to Saruman), courage, some skill in managing an unruly command. He dies bravely, even heroically.


Perhaps Ugluk's lineage, some degree of "mannishness" is what enables him to act in unexpected ways? Since orcs are not redeemable, this makes Saruman's genetic meddling even more abominable.


*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***


oliphaunt
Lorien


Jun 6 2023, 8:40pm

Post #6 of 63 (2122 views)
Shortcut
Ah, grit not nitty-gritty [In reply to] Can't Post

Grit as in personal perseverance, not nitty-gritty as in practical details.

I'll propose this as a strength common to all the most successful characters in LOTR. For example, say Fredegar Bolger, who feared to leave the Shire but ended up leading a group of rebels around Scary and enduring the lock holes.

Though it might be harder to say grit is always missing from the other sort. Thinking of Smeagol, say, as opposed to Saruman, or Wormtongue.


*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 7 2023, 11:39am

Post #7 of 63 (2089 views)
Shortcut
Yes, a kind of courage, not expertise in project management [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, a kind of courage, not expertise in project management.

(That is, Merry's "plain courage alone in a tight place" defines 'grit' rather than listing a second alleged failing in Saruman.)

Looking at "a kind of courage, not expertise in project management", Merry shows the first of those when, terrified, he nonetheless manages to hamstring the Witch King. Tolkien is very careful to show us how difficult it is for Merry to get past his terror to behave as a "King's Man" should. If it had been easy, it would not matter so much that he does it.

Merry shows the second skill or ability when he has an expedition all equipped to leave Crickhollow at very short notice. Most of the gear is soon lost in the Barrow-downs or in Bree, but had the Black Riders discovered Crickhollow sooner, Merry's advance preparations might have saved all their lives.

But note that of the four expedition hobbits it is Sam who usually does the organising. Specialisation by personality perhaps, but I think that this is a class thing. The other three country gentlemen are used to having 'a man' to deal with such practical matters. Gentlemen might find such things tedious or have some other matter more important matter to attend to than not running out of food.


I think there is some very Edwardian English stuff going on here.

Consider this shown in Tolkien's life: Letter 58, 1944 - Tolkien recounts a trip to a lunch and re-union at his old school, and "To my complete surprise I found that I was remembered chiefly for rugger prowess (!!) [rugger = the sport of rugby in public school slang] and my taste in coloured socks...."

Phew, well that worked then: "rugger prowess" would certainly excuse a 'chap' for eccentricities such as coloured socks or setting up swotty poetry or language clubs. Team sports, "rugger" especially, were very much seen as a training in and a test for 'grit'. It is no mistake that John Garth starts his biography Tolkien and the Great War with a school rugby match, allowing readers to think for a time that he is describing an attack across no man's land.

Without such an acceptable side as 'rugger prowess' it could be a tricky thing back then for a 'chap' to get a reputation for being too 'brainy'.


Does this work in Middle-earth? I think so. Bilbo is liked rather than just tollerated in the Shire because he is rich, generous and outwardly affable. And of course he is a Baggins, and thereby has the social status to ignore any mutterings about his penchants for literature and languages and foreign friends. Or, worse, his liking for (shudder) adventure - while hobbits are gritty* , they have no Romantic Movement or Imperial context, or tradition of dangerous sports in which to value it.

But note that some Hobbiton heads are shaken thinking about Bilbo teaching lowly Sam "his letters, meaning no harm by it." Perhaps no good will come of working-class Sam going all 'Elves and Dragons' when he should be "Cabbages and Potaotes" (Sam - His Worship the Mayor in the end -- is a rare example of successful social mobility in LOTR, come to think of it... Smile)


So much for theissues around technical competence or being 'brainy' not being quite cricket for a gentleman.


Back to 'grit' as on courage now. I don't want to take the single word 'grit' and run away with it too far. It would be possible to run a long way.

You can, I hope, already see from my comments and Robert Macfarlane's that the virtue of 'grit' was often set about with ideas of standards of manliness (and therefore gender and sexuality); of nationality and race; of class. Ideas from that specific time and culture, though that is not to say other times and places didn't/don't have very similar ideas.


Nor did everyone think alike about whether qualities such as courage were predictably bestowed only in some kinds of people in the (roughly defined) Edwardian Age before the meat grinder of the trenches.

Consider Founder of the Scouting Movement Lord Robert Baden-Powell on courage ('pluck') in girls, or Rudyard Kipling's British Soldier in India acknowledging of his lowly Indian water character "You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din".


I do not claim to know exactly what Tolkien thought about all this (in real life, or exactly how that might play out conciously or unconciously onto the page).


So given all that, what does Merry mean? He could mean that there is something wrong with Saruman in the manliness department, or that he is "too clever by half ** " ; or that technology is bad and feudalism is good, or that he is just behaving in a way that is too alien for a hobbit to respect. And he could be reflecting his author's prejudices, or maybe not.
Either way, I think Merry is making a pretty damning assessment with that one word, which I had not noticed before.

----
* Rather than grit, Tolkien prefers 'tough as tree roots'. Probably because he has a poet's ear for sounds, and also because in some way the hobbits' toughness is rooted in the land they call home.

** There is of course a sense in which Saruman clearly is "too clever by half" - his schemes tend to backfire. But I'm thinking of cleverness as deemed bad or unnatural in itself, unless balanced by more culturally-acceptable qualities. Maybe Saruman should have taken up 'rugger' not pipeweed?


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jun 7 2023, 11:45am)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 7 2023, 11:43am

Post #8 of 63 (2085 views)
Shortcut
Some more cultural baggage from Letter #58 [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Elsewhere in Letter #58 Tolkien recounts a railway journey and a discussion with an American Officer who caused Tolkien annoyance by voicing over-confident opinions about "'Feudalism' and its results on English class-distinctions and social behaviour".

There is potentially a lot of cultural baggage here. Specifically by 1944 old-fashioned English cultural baggage in Tolkien's case; American cultural baggage in the Officer; maybe a third set in the RAF officer also in the conversation, who I'll infer to be British but younger than Tolkien. A lot was changed culturally when Edwardian values hit the meat grinder of the trenches.

Tolkien's repeated prejudices against Americans (when considered en masse) is one of the less endearing and more foolish things about him one discovers from Letters.

And also consider: "The poor boob [the American] had not, of course, the very faintest notions of 'Feudalism' , or history at all - being a chemical engineer" [Oh no, not a ....gasp......chemical engineer Shocked] Is our dear Professor is an Arts versus Sciences snob too?

Either of these might have a bearing on Saruman's lack of 'grit' and whether it is to do with a foreigness or dodgy technology. Or both compounded? Or not.

But one should also allow for a tone of irony here - #58 ends with them stopping by a refreshment room for 'some bad coffee' together (this is 1944 wartime: everything is rationed. Coffee would be universally bad). So cultural baggage can be overcome - and that is a comforting thought.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2023, 3:23pm

Post #9 of 63 (2077 views)
Shortcut
What did Galadriel know, and when did she know it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for all the stimulating thoughts and questions, Oliphaunt!


1. Galadriel makes it clear that she did not want Saruman the lead the White Council. Why? What did she know, or suspect? Would Galadriel have seen somewhat of Saruman in the Mirror?

This issue continues our reader bewilderment of "If the White Council members were suspicious of Saruman, why didn't they act on it or clarify the situation one way or the other? At the very least, why did they leave him in charge of the anti-Sauron political party when he might have been a Sauron-sympathizer?"

But I think the author intent is to draw our attention to how perceptive Galadriel is compared to the rest of the Wise. Radagast and Elrond don't seem to distrust Saruman at all, nor does Galdor, Cirdan's surrogate from the Havens. Gandalf has only a little mistrust. It's Galadriel who has the most distrust, and from the outset, being the most perceptive. She was also the one who most clearly perceived the corruption in Uncle Feanor's heart, and she tells Frodo she can see all of Sauron's mind that concerns the Elves.

So while I am frustrated that the White Council allowed its leader to be a traitor, I will guess at Tolkien's mind and suggest he had two things in mind: 1) Saruman's treason didn't happen overnight and had seeds planted centuries ago, and 2) hey, look at how awesome Galadriel is! (I do find her awesome, so that's not meant to be snarky.)

I would add that while Galadriel and Gandalf are indeed Wise, their distrust of Saruman is at the gut level and not easily proved. I would relate that to real-life situations where you think, "I can't prove it, but Joe/Jane gives off a really bad vibe, and I think they're up to no good." Only years later when you find all the bodies in their attic are you proved right, but it's too late. What were you going to do--raid their attic? That's breaking the law.


2. Saruman was the most learned in the White Council about Sauron, and was proud of himself. Sounds a bit like another character who was also smart and learned and proud of himself. His name begins with a "D" and he thought he could take on Sauron mentally. Any ideas?

Pride goeth before a fall in Tolkien, that is certain. Feanor, Denethor, Melkor, Saruman, Sauron: all too sure of themselves. Even Thorin in The Hobbit. Gandalf and Aragorn, as noted in other posts, openly admitted to self-doubt. I would suggest Tolkien equated the virtue of humility with self-doubt, and it was this virtue that kept these characters on the right moral path. Aragorn wanted to be a world ruler just as much as Saruman and Sauron did, but without the tyranny.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2023, 3:46pm

Post #10 of 63 (2070 views)
Shortcut
You mention "corruption" like it's a bad thing [In reply to] Can't Post

5. Is Saruman's ability to use birds as spies a similar skill, but corrupted? Are the Crebain themselves evil, or were they neutral and being used by Saruman?
25. Saruman is associated with machinery in a very negative way. In LOTR is technology a kind of magic? Can it be used for good as well as evil? Saruman studied the Rings and the Palantiri. Are Palantiri and Rings of Power a kind of technology?

I find related issues here. While Tolkien seemed to enjoy the fruits of a technological society, he still saw technology as inherently corrupt because it was a departure from nature, and nature is best left alone (ask Tom Bombadil). Mordor, new-Isengard, and Sharkey-Shire were all industrial nightmares of chopped down trees, ugly buildings, and ruined ecosystems. Most of the worst actors in Middle-earth were of Aule's smith people: Melkor, Sauron, Saruman, Feanor and the Noldor. And along the way, the smith/artisan, industrial-technology complex corrupts things like birds and Men. There's a sense of inevitability to it.

For some reason, I'm sure quite sentimental and emotional, the Shire gets a pass, so they can have things like umbrellas and fireworks while not being environment spoilers.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 7 2023, 4:10pm

Post #11 of 63 (2067 views)
Shortcut
Some 'fridge horror' here [In reply to] Can't Post

Firstly, yes: it could be that Saruman's experiments, programme or whatever it was has paid off not only by producing troops who can work in daylight, but in producing troops that lack the other disadvantage of orcs - being pretty poor soldiers.

There's some 'fridge horror' here (when the process of 'fridge logic' leads one to realise something pretty horrible) if one starts to think about the process

Quote
I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men?

  • Is Saruman a sort of Dr Frankenstein, or Doctor Moreau? Messing around (technologically or magically) with necromancy, dead body parts, live body parts vivisection?
  • Something more Jekyll and Hyde, where he has somehow amplified the bad side of Mannish nature?
  • Are the Uruks literally mixed race (Mannish and orcish parents)? If so I'm guessing this is not about introducing some young mean and women to some orcs, who turn out to be nice people and slowly over time by the natural consequeces of human love affairs... I'm thinking there would probably have been something much nastier and quicker.
Of course there is also a lot of what might (at best) be Unfortunate Implications here in which Tolkien might not (or I suppose might) have considered that some readers would likely have strongly negative opinions about inter-racial marriages in the real world, and see this idea through the lens of that taboo.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2023, 4:22pm

Post #12 of 63 (2063 views)
Shortcut
Are you a Power, or merely a power? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Treebeard: 'I think that I now understand what he is up to. He is plotting to become a Power.'


As an aside, I love the "infodumps" Tolkien sprinkles into LOTR via people like Gildor, Bombadil, Aragorn, and Treebeard in the absence of Gandalf the Info-Dumper-in-Chief. What makes them work, I think, is how much of the speaker's thinking and personality is revealed in the info-dumping process. I've certainly read other books where I downright hated the long expository world-building, so if there's a formula for it, Tolkien hit on it.

Back to our sheep: it's rare throughout LOTR for anyone to capitalize a word when they're speaking, so Treebeard's point to do so always fires up my imagination. What point is he making? Who else would he call a Power in the world? Are lesser rulers like Thranduil a Power, or is it a celebrity status reserved for Lorien, Rivendell, Gondor, Rohan, and Mordor?

Here's a Denethor quote for comparison:

Quote
'For a little space you may triumph on the field, for a day. But against the Power that now arises there is no victory. To this City only the first finger of its hand has yet been stretched.'


Then a quote from Saruman to Gandalf:

Quote
'A new Power is rising. Against it the old allies and policies will not avail us at all. There is no hope left in Elves or dying Númenor. This then is one choice before you, before us. We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow;'


My Kindle found 305 "power" in LOTR, and it's rarely capitalized except when referring to Sauron, so is Treebeard really saying that Saruman is a Sauron-wannabe rather than a Galadriel-wannabe?


10. Was Saruman's politeness real or feigned when he had a cordial relationship with Treebeard?
My reader interpretation is that Saruman looked down on everyone and only saw people in how they were useful to him. Like any manipulative person, he feigned politeness to Treebeard but probably considered him a dumb walking, talking tree.


24. It's common in Tolkien analysis to see the Maiar likened to angels. Is this a good way to describe the wizards or don't they equate to angels? How about demi-gods? Or a mash-up?
I guess I'd first ask: which angels are we talking about? Traditional Christian angels are good and helpful, until someone brings up Satan, the Fallen Angel. But I think that applies to Melkor and Sauron but not Saruman, or *not yet* to Saruman. I do think Gandalf is pretty angelic in his intents, which I suspect is why Tolkien roughed him up a little by giving him a short temper so he's not too perfect.


squire
Half-elven


Jun 7 2023, 7:47pm

Post #13 of 63 (2056 views)
Shortcut
We wouldn't understand, it's an Edwardian thing... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the extended commentary on the cultural resonances of the 'grit' concept. I always think it's worth remembering Tolkien's own social setting when interpreting the language or customs of Middle-earth, especially the hobbits.

On that note, I was struck by your assertion, on the question of why Sam seems to end up in charge of the logistics of the four hobbits' earlier adventures, that "The other three country gentlemen are used to having 'a man' to deal with such practical matters."

I thought, "Are they, though?" Do we have any indication that Merry or Pippin have a Sam - a gentlehobbit's gentlehobbit - back at their home digs or holes? Did Sam "do for" Mr. Frodo at Bag End, as was casually said to be his planned role after the deceptive move to Crickhollow? I don't find any mention of these things, nor any implication of them, in the story.

In Tolkien's English context, he can casually toss this into the mix and his readers would have no reason to question it. Of course a wealthy man has, or can have, a personal servant. And there is a rich literature on the subject of the servant saving the master, going back to the 'clever slave' of Plautus' Roman comedies, and coming down to the present through Sancho Panza, Figaro, and of course Jeeves.

But in the Shire context he's created Tolkien doesn't support the idea at all. We see that Bilbo lives alone and does his own cooking and housecleaning. Frodo does the same when he comes into his inheritance - at Bag End Sam is his gardener, not his house-servant or butler. Any other wealthy hobbits, starting with the Tooks and the Brandybucks, may be mentioned in the annals or the backstory, but their lifestyles and their use of servants of any kind is never explored. Pippin at one point rather ingenuously claims that his father, the Thain, is a mere farmer.

Well, we've discussed before the odd economics and sociology of the Shire hobbits, and this is just one aspect of that puzzle. I think it's somewhat reckless to say that Frodo, Merry, and Pippin were all accustomed to having their affairs managed by their own personal servants, even if that might be true about their equivalent personages from the country estates of Edwardian England.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


oliphaunt
Lorien


Jun 7 2023, 9:11pm

Post #14 of 63 (2044 views)
Shortcut
Power to the Mair, right on. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll have to keep this power/Power distinction in mind when I'm reading. Treebeard has certainly be around long enough to know who is a little-p or a big-P.

Did Saruman spent too much time studying Sauron, until he wanted to be him? Or was he always attracted to the dark side? Kind of like a firefighter who turns arsonist, or an undercover officer who turns to underworld activities. Which comes first, the attraction or the immersion?

As far as I've learned, Christian angels have free will and can choose good or evil. Now, since they were created before the material world, they've become set in their decision, but presumably they made their choice at some point. They are not omnipotent, and there are things they do not understand. They cannot read the future. Although they can appear on Earth, they can't be in Heaven at the same time (they have to commute by descending or ascending). There's been much debate about whether angels can temporarily become corporeal, but in Orthodoxy at least, they are referred to as "bodiless powers" (small p).


*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***


oliphaunt
Lorien


Jun 7 2023, 9:21pm

Post #15 of 63 (2049 views)
Shortcut
Ugh, shut the door on that! [In reply to] Can't Post

I say keep the fridge door shut.

To me 'blended the races of Orcs and Men' sounds like genetic engineering.

IVF wasn't realized until 1981, though presumably the concept was around for a while prior. However, that date is in a world without magical wizardly powers.

But since our author never saw fit to provide any details about orc development, I suppose it's best not to go there.


*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***


Felagund
Rohan


Jun 7 2023, 9:51pm

Post #16 of 63 (2044 views)
Shortcut
Uglúk, and his own sharp brand of 'Knowledge; Rule; Order' [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Ugluk, I think shows loyalty (to Saruman), courage, some skill in managing an unruly command. He dies bravely, even heroically.


Since my very first reading of LotR, I've had some empathy for Uglúk. He's the hardest-working Uruk around, doing his very best to carry out difficult orders in difficult circumstances - and nearly pulls it off. He's much more of a soldier, with a sense of organisation, discipline and purpose than the vast majority of his more rabble-like kind. Unsurprisingly, when I started on Middle-earth Role Playing in the 1980s, one of my first characters was of course an Uruk called Uglúk :)

Whether Uglúk's skill-set and abilities is because he has a 'mannish' strain, care of Saruman's experiments - as oliphant suggests - maybe. I note though that Uglúk does self-identify as being of the Uruk-hai on several occasions.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


oliphaunt
Lorien


Jun 7 2023, 9:57pm

Post #17 of 63 (2039 views)
Shortcut
Elvish creep-meter? [In reply to] Can't Post

So Galadriel's creep-meter was going off, but she didn't want to make unsubstantiated accusations?

I do agree Galadriel is awesome, and at times scary-awesome.

She's chooses to be good when faced with serious temptation.


*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***


Felagund
Rohan


Jun 7 2023, 10:31pm

Post #18 of 63 (2031 views)
Shortcut
Saruman the understudy [In reply to] Can't Post

An awesome stash of insights and questions, all in one post - thanks for 'Career as a Power'!

I'll start with Q.21 while I ponder the rest:


Quote
21. Would you say that Saruman's treachery is as bad, if less effective, and more recent, than Sauron's?


Less effective by comparison, yes. And less bad, in the scale of harm caused, as terrible as that was. But the bar is set very high by Sauron, whose fall into darkness gets special mention in the 'Valaquenta'. There's a similarity to the nature of the treachery too. Saruman was about as deep in the counsels of the Wise as could be, whilst plotting against the Free Peoples. Sauron too, if we take the 'Annals of Aman' cut of what ended up being published in 'Of the Beginning of Days' (The Silmarillion), was also for a long time the 'chief' of Melkor's "secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause". The intel from the inside the likes of Sauron was able to provide undoubtedly paved the way for Melkor's cataclysmic overthrow of the Lamps of the Valar and the widespread destruction of Arda that ensued.

A final reflection on the treachery of Saruman: he ends up betraying the White Council and the Free Peoples, and attempts the same with Sauron. A double traitor, if you will.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


oliphaunt
Lorien


Jun 7 2023, 10:44pm

Post #19 of 63 (2032 views)
Shortcut
Another World [In reply to] Can't Post

Fortunately for Saruman, Ugluk didn't receive the results of his '21 and me' ancestry testing prior to his trip to Parth Galen.


*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***


Felagund
Rohan


Jun 7 2023, 10:50pm

Post #20 of 63 (2030 views)
Shortcut
Galadriel the Perceiver vs Sauron the Deceiver [In reply to] Can't Post

Galadriel (as well as Gil-galad) also perceives that something is up with the mysterious and ever-so generous Annatar / Aulendil. She seems to consistently spot the bad seeds, although appears less able or willing to act on her suspicions.

This all gets me thinking of Círdan, who is described in LotR ('Appendix B') in these terms:


Quote
For Círdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return."


This capacity for insight, which by extension puts him in a league above Galadriel and Elrond, is the prologue explainer for why Círdan hands Narya over to Gandalf. However, this insight doesn't seem to extend as far as seeing Saruman for what he becomes - despite centuries of exposure. Perhaps that's just not how preternatural insight works!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


oliphaunt
Lorien


Jun 7 2023, 11:04pm

Post #21 of 63 (2020 views)
Shortcut
Fading? [In reply to] Can't Post

Saruman as less successfully evil than Sauron who was less successfully evil than Melkor?

This apparently "diminishing" their evil a part of the fading of magic from Middle Earth?


*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2023, 12:59pm

Post #22 of 63 (2003 views)
Shortcut
yes, good point [In reply to] Can't Post

There's nothing in the text to say that Merry or Pippin have a sort of Jeeves character (or other servants) to look after them, even though gentlemen who were the heirs to a good part of a Shire would have done so in the era in which the Shire is oh-so-vaguely based, or for much of Tolkien's earlier lifetime.

Now of course tha sagacious Jeeves serves the aimiable drone-like Bertie Wooster, and both of PG Wodehouse's pair of characters are exaggerated for comic effect. It is easy to think of virtues Merry and Pippin show that Wooster must have deeply buried. The aforementioned 'grit' is one: loyalty is another.

But the amateurish 'hobbit walking-party' nature of the expedition is commented upon, and Pippin's self-criticism (as a captive of the uruks) that he has been little more use than baggage does not seem overly harsh. At least Merry has looked at maps enough to know where they are when they escape ("I don't suppose you have much notion where we are; but I spent my time in Rivendell rather better.") And of course Pippin responds with some astonishment to teh part of Gandalf's pre-Denethor briefing in whcih he finally realises that Aragorn is the returning King.

What are those ghostly grumbles I hear from Lord Robert Baden-Powell - something about character and wits being all very well and good for a young person to have, but you have to learn to Be Prepared? Smile

It is irrisistable not to thnk of all those young Englishmen that 19th and early 20th Century public schools equipped for life with an RP accent, a fine collection of cricket and rugby caps, a prize for having correctly recited The Charge Of The Light Brigade by rote at Open Day, and an invincible belief that a gentleman could busk his way through pretty much anything with effortless ease.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2023, 1:15pm

Post #23 of 63 (2002 views)
Shortcut
Yes, "Just Tea Thank You!" [In reply to] Can't Post

That six-pack of Nightmare Fuel chilling in the fridge - No I don't think we need to pop those cans.
Nor is there anything to say that Tolkien had a specific methodology in mind, and indeed he might have attacked such workings out, as 'scientifictitious' (like his critique of Mr Zimmerman's proposed film treatment of Saruman's voice - letter #210, and quoted by oliphaunt in last week's discussion )
Perhaps the more important point is to see reasons why what Saruman has done (in some not-opening-that-can way) is so bad. Not only is there some meddling with the natural order, but there's probably a treatment of people as just things - wooden blocks for Saruman's game of generals.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2023, 2:14pm

Post #24 of 63 (1997 views)
Shortcut
or...and... and in either case if so [In reply to] Can't Post

As an alternative, maybe the younger hobbits are meant to appear child-like, not possesing the "easy confidence of someone who'd never been pressed too hard by life".
Either way, I'm thinking they are so unlike Saruman as to be close to his opposite: excellent versus terrible character; busks through life rather than concocts eleborate plans; moral compass versus one tuned to ambition; sociable versus sociopath.
And maybe grit versus no grit. Though I am not sure what Merry thinks Saruman should have done - come out with a glyphosphate spray and challenge Treebeard to single combat? Smile

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


sevilodorf
Tol Eressea

Jun 8 2023, 2:31pm

Post #25 of 63 (1995 views)
Shortcut
A "vote" for Dr. Moreau [In reply to] Can't Post

as a point of inspiration.
Though human hybrids go back to mythological time and are also present in the form of Caliban in The Tempest and Grendel in Beowulf, I've always thought of Dr. Moreau when considering Saruman and the orcs because of characterization of Saruman as a mind of metal and wheels (implied technology/science).

Also plain old genetics through careful breeding was not unknown ... which leads to really horrible thoughts of exactly how Saruman was producing those "improved" orcs.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)



First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.