|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 23 2008, 5:35am
Post #1 of 45
(1842 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Chapter Discussion: Helm's Deep - Last questions
|
Can't Post
|
|
Thank you to everyone who took part in the chapter discussion this week - whether it was by posting or lurking! There were some great discussions generated by the participants and I've really enjoyed looking at this chapter through other people's eyes.
If there is any question I haven't posed that you'd like to discuss, please post it here.
Meanwhile I have one question that I couldn't fit into any of the other topics:
"Devilry of Saruman! The have crept in the culvert again ... and they have lit the fire of Orthance beneath our feet!"
*The* fire of Orthanc, not *a* fire of Orthanc? Was this a previously known or suspected science of Saruman, then?
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
May 23 2008, 2:33pm
Post #2 of 45
(1468 views)
Shortcut
|
"Devilry of Saruman! The have crept in the culvert again ... and they have lit the fire of Orthance beneath our feet!"
*The* fire of Orthanc, not *a* fire of Orthanc? Was this a previously known or suspected science of Saruman, then?
"There were, as has been said, many young hobbits present. Hundreds of musical crackers had been pulled. Most of them bore the mark of DALE on them; which did not convey much to most of the hobbits, but they all agreed they were marvellous crackers."
Personally I think fireworks labled "Made In Dale" are superior to those marked "Made in Orthanc". Quality over quantity.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
|
|
|
Elenedhel
Rivendell
May 24 2008, 1:20am
Post #3 of 45
(1630 views)
Shortcut
|
But thanks anyway!
"O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees,
Thy starlight on the Western Seas."
"It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men,and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he was from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace..."
"Many folk like to know beforehand what is to be set on the table; but those who have laboured to prepare the feast like to keep their secret; for wonder makes the words of praise louder."
|
|
|
Beren IV
Gondor
May 24 2008, 4:27pm
Post #4 of 45
(1476 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I assume that it's something known of before
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
If they were going to call it "fire of Orthanc", that implies knowledge of its existence beforehand, and not some nameless new devilry they have no knowledge at all of. The fact that they know orcs crawled back into the culvert also implies they even know something about how this fire works.
I get the impression from things like this that there are a lot more things in Middle Earth that aren't described but that educated people at least know about, but aren't relevant to the plot so aren't mentioned until they become relevant. In this case, it's easy enough to assume that Saruman has access to some kind of magic, he is a Wizard, after all, so it doesn't take much of a stretch to add some new spell to his grimoire. As we will see later, Sauron also has something similar.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
May 25 2008, 9:30am
Post #5 of 45
(1456 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"Wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them"
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
- the goblins, 'Over Hill and Under Hill'
A month ago, people where wondering which self-respecting orc would chose to serve Saruman!
"I will help as I may" - Gimli
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
May 25 2008, 12:04pm
Post #6 of 45
(1412 views)
Shortcut
|
I came a bit late to this discussion, but I've enjoyed catching up on everything.
As for the "fire of Orthanc", I agree with others that similar technology is mentioned in LotR, whether it's Gandalf's fireworks or Sauron's own destructive powers.
I think it hints at the fact that at least some of the "magic" of LotR may only be technology seen through other eyes. The characters (and narrators) don't know what it is, and don't try to explain it beyond believing that it's something wizardly and beyond their ken.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
vtboyarc
Lorien
May 25 2008, 6:54pm
Post #7 of 45
(1389 views)
Shortcut
|
I think it is something that Saruman concocted, kinda like in the movies. Probably worse than normal fire, by all means.
Theres some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and its worth fighting for.
|
|
|
Beren IV
Gondor
May 26 2008, 1:42am
Post #9 of 45
(1487 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"Any technology, sufficiently advanced,
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
will be indistinguishable from magic."
There clearly are some things in LotR that it doesn't make sense to call anything but magic: the Rings of Power, for example, have properties that cannot be explained by any science we can understand, and the absence of other high-tech items in the War of the Ring (e.g. tanks, aircraft), and the presence of now-obsolete weapons (swords, spears) indicate a level of technology that is primitive relative to our own, indicates that the power of these items must indeed be magic. This does leave the question, though, of things like explosives in M.E. - are they magic that does not exist in our universe, or are they primitive explosives that we can understand? Or, of course, the third possibility: primitive explosives we can understand further enhanced with magical power...
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
May 26 2008, 8:30am
Post #10 of 45
(1389 views)
Shortcut
|
"Any science, sufficiently advanced..."
There clearly are some things in LotR that it doesn't make sense to call anything but magic: the Rings of Power, for example...
Some things that aren't technologically explainable are scientifically explainable - for example, the Rings of Power work mostly by the power of suggestion. That's why they seem to affect different people in different ways - why the very idea of them seems to affect some people (Saruman, Denethor), while their actual presence has no effect on others (like Aragorn). Other things, volcanos or mysterious storms or winds for example, also look like magic if you don't have scientists measuring them, or satellite photos of them!
the absence of other high-tech items in the War of the Ring (e.g. tanks, aircraft), and the presence of now-obsolete weapons (swords, spears) indicate a level of technology that is primitive relative to our own
Yes, you have to imagine that the secrets of science and technology are known to very few, and are used sparingly. Also that they don't have our level of technology, of course, but something more like what other ancient races have developed in the past (the Chinese had gunpowder, I think, and the Romans had the kind of building technology that could have produced something equivalent to Elven architecture. And many ancient leaders figured out how to use their own secret knowledge - and their people's ignorance - to make themselves appear magically or even divinely wise and strong).
It's clear that the people in the story, including its narrator(s), don't understand the science or technology behind what they see, and so assume it must be magic. And as readers, we clearly have the right to enter into that world with them and believe in the magic ourselves. But I think we are also entitled to take a step back and understand, as modern readers, that Middle-earth is really our world "at a different stage of the imagination" - a world that finds magic where we might see only mundane reality.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 26 2008, 4:17pm
Post #11 of 45
(1365 views)
Shortcut
|
I get that the Ring operates by power of suggestion. What puzzles me is how a supposedly inanimate object can actively and willfully suggest anything at all.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
|
|
|
weaver
Half-elven
May 26 2008, 5:06pm
Post #12 of 45
(1386 views)
Shortcut
|
This is a book chapter that I've never liked as much as others, but lurking through your discussion helped me to understand and appreciate it more. Thank you!
Weaver
|
|
|
Beren IV
Gondor
May 27 2008, 12:25am
Post #13 of 45
(1372 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Not sure I understand what you mean
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
or if I agree with you.
Some things that aren't technologically explainable are scientifically explainable - for example, the Rings of Power work mostly by the power of suggestion.
I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say. It is obvious that the Rings of Power do work (in a large part) by the power of suggestion, although it is also clear they have other properties as well. But still, we, in our present state of science, do not have any devices capable of implanting suggestions like that, nor do we have any idea how we would. The closest thing I can think of would be some way to expose people to some chemical that would activate or enhance certain basic instincts - a chemical aphrodesiac, for example. I can also imagine a chemical that could trigger anger, but would have a hard time controlling how that anger is directed or who it is aimed at. The Rings of Power, if they are technological, are not only more advanced than anything we are currently capable of, but they are more advanced than anything we can currently conceive of, i.e. indistinguishable from magic.
Yes, you have to imagine that the secrets of science and technology are known to very few, and are used sparingly.
The problem with this - and this is where Arthur C. Clarke's oft-quoted adage is wrong - is that if something is possible, then there will be people looking into figuring out how to do it, and that means that if you do use these secrets of advanced science for long enough, then others will find it, study it, figure it out, and use it themselves. The legends of Kon-tiki and Quetzelcoatl are legends because the historical events upon which they are based occurred only once, or a small enough number of times that the secrets they might have brought over were lost. If they came back on a semi-regular basis, it wouldn't be long before their secrets would begun to be unraveled.
Yes, China had gunpowder from about the year 900 onward. The Romans had architectural techniques that were impressive for the time. But we can do both much more effectively today than either can. We still can't build stone statues with outstretched hands a mile tall, nor certify that the weather in an area will always be temperate, or make ourselves unable to age, or implant suggestions into peoples' minds too powerful for all but the strongest-willed to refuse.
Plus, the fact is, if Sauron were capable of outfitting his orcs with tanks and machine guns, he would have, because so armed, they would win, with none of this mucking about with strategy and amassing forces necessary.
But I think we are also entitled to take a step back and understand, as modern readers, that Middle-earth is really our world "at a different stage of the imagination" - a world that finds magic where we might see only mundane reality.
I don't think that's the meaning of that phrase. The concept is that Middle Earth is not our world's history, but it's myth or its fantasy. The reason why there are phenomena in Middle Earth that aren't in reality is because, so the mythology goes, they don't exist in our universe anymore, not because we simply know them by a different name. Tolkien makes it abundantly clear in his other letters that there are things in Middle Earth that have powers that they do that are simply not measurable by any means we have. Lembas bread, for example, is ordinary bread in a laboratory. It's only when used that its special properties become apparent. That wouldn't be true if it genuinely had more metabolic energy inside of it: it would have a higher lipid content, or the like. With showing metals to stone-age people, the stone-age people would still be able to recognize the metal as a substance they were unfamiliar with. If we're talking about the Incas with Kon-tiki, they would even recognize it as a metal, just not one of the metals they did know about. The magical materials in Tolkien's world are materials that we are familiar with - they just have properties that we are not familiar with. The One Ring is made out of gold.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 27 2008, 1:39am
Post #14 of 45
(1390 views)
Shortcut
|
Another lurker here. I must admit that this is the chapter which confuses me the most; but every time we go through a discussion on it, it becomes more comprehendable - and hence, more enjoyable!
The use of "the" instead of "a" for Saruman's pyrotechnic weapon does seem to imply that it's been used before, although it's hard to imagine what use for it he would have had before now (other than doing a bit of blasting at Isengard)!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
May 27 2008, 10:04am
Post #15 of 45
(1375 views)
Shortcut
|
...but when I read LotR, I filter it through my understanding that this is a story told by people who saw the world differently than we do - who saw magic where we see only ordinary, explainable facts. Tolkien's conceit seems to be that the people who see the magic are right, and that we have lost that power, but still I interpret the story as showing us how events in our world might look to people who did believe in, and could therefore "see", magic. He's subtle with his magic a lot of the time - some of the more extreme magical events (Gandalf's fight with the Balrog and his return to life, for example) aren't described directly, but are only told to us afterwards by a character. And many apparently magical things that are witnessed by Frodo are said only to "seem" that way to him - even he doesn't seem completely sure what he saw.
This works for me because I prefer to imagine that LotR is told by the characters themselves (as the Preface, and indeed the story itself, tells us it is). This allows me to imagine that Middle-earth might really be our ordinary earth, as it appeared many Ages ago to people whose view of the world is different from ours. This isn't so far-fetched - even in Medieval times people really did believe that witchcraft, or magic, or the wrath of God, or the alignment of the stars, was responsible for disasters, and they took practical steps based on these beliefs in their attempts to avert disasters. Other civilizations, of course, put massive amounts of resources into buildings to appease gods, for example to persuade the Sun to come back each year after the Winter solstice. If you look at the world from the perspective of such a person, the world really is magical - the Sun really can decide to desert the Earth, strange creatures really do live in dark or unexplored places, unusual or precious objects, especially ones from an unexplained past, really do have the power to help or harm you - it's not suspension of disbelief for them, it's reality.
Looking at things from that perspective, the problem doesn't become a question of exactly how something so "magical" as the Ring can be achieved, which as you say would be impossible even now:
It is obvious that the Rings of Power do work (in a large part) by the power of suggestion, although it is also clear they have other properties as well. But still, we, in our present state of science, do not have any devices capable of implanting suggestions like that, nor do we have any idea how we would.
Instead, it's really a question beliefs - if you truly believe that you possess something of great magical power, the very thought of it would be likely to play on your mind in exactly the way that the Ring plays on the mind of Saruman, say, or Denethor, or even Sam - or Frodo certainly in the earlier parts of the story, where he's tempted to put it on at odd times, or has thoughts spring unbidden into his mind. The magic isn't in the object, but in the eye of the beholder.
The same could be said of lembas - the reason its properties "are simply not measurable by any means we have" might be because its effects come from the belief of the people who consume it. You could say the same about Communion bread (to which lembas has been compared). It's just ordinary bread unless you truly believe that it's something more.
I have to admit that this approach can't explain everything - the invisibility conferred by the Ring has to be magic, surely, and the way the Ring works on Frodo's mind in the later part of the story seems to be something we can't really imagine either (although the idea of addiction, as suggested by the movie, does make a lot of sense). But a lot of the "magic", especially at the start, is subtle enough to let us imagine that it is in the eye of the beholder. In the end, there are quite a few things that can't be "explained", but if you believe (as I do) that the story is being told by the characters in it, you stop wanting an "explanation" of everything (a very modern habit, I'd say!), and accept the story as a glimpse not into an objectively magical world, but into a subjectively magical one - our world as it might have seemed to people of an earlier Age.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 27 2008, 4:04pm
Post #16 of 45
(1334 views)
Shortcut
|
One of the most non-duplicable traits of the One Ring would be telepathy. It figures out what you want, and tempts you to use the Ring to get it. The One Ring would not have bothered showing Boromir Mordor turning into one gigantic garden, nor shown Sam armies rallying to the defense of Gondor.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 27 2008, 4:28pm
Post #17 of 45
(1356 views)
Shortcut
|
I see Middle Earth as being in a middle-ground between the scientific and magical perspectives--a viewpoint quite familiar from the American Indian perspective, and one which I suspect that Tolkien might have shared. That is, that some things have explanations within our grasp to understand (like gunpowder) and some do not (like invisibility) but all are part of a cohesive larger order (the music of creation in the Ainulindale, if you will) that might use science to manifest itself, but is not entirely contained by science. The Wise know how to flow with the currents of that music, which might lead to discovering the scientific principles that make producing gunpowder possible, or which might lead to some other manifestation not covered by science. In other words, science is a big, crucial part of the whole, but is not the whole. A larger framework exists, that may be used for good or ill even as one might use science by itself.
To put it another way, I forget which famous Roman said, "The difference between a Roman and an Etruscan is that a Roman believes that lightning is caused by clouds bumping together, whereas an Etruscan believes that clouds bump together in order to cause lightning." I am of the Etruscan persuasion, myself.
In this sort of "nothing is random" universe, the various divine interventions are not cheats, but realism. To leave out such a major force would be like leaving light out of a painting. These manifestations are not Deux Ex Machina, because 1) evil as well as good can intervene, and 2) People can and sometimes do miss their opportunities, or refuse them altogether. Much still hangs by a thread, its fate determined by human decision alone.
I am not sure I am saying this adequately. So much depends upon a whole foundation of assumptions to explain. I see that foundation implied in Middle Earth, and people not raised with that foundation do nevertheless respond to it, yet inchoately.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
May 27 2008, 4:28pm
Post #18 of 45
(1331 views)
Shortcut
|
This reminds me of a question someone once asked about the thermos flask. They knew that it keeps cold things cold, and hot things hot. What they couldn't understand was, How the heck did it know which was which???
[The Ring] figures out what you want, and tempts you to use the Ring to get it.
The Ring doesn't have to figure out what you want. You do that to yourself. All it has to do is amplify your own deepest desires. And that doesn't necessarily require magical power - it just requires belief in its magical power.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 27 2008, 4:43pm
Post #19 of 45
(1331 views)
Shortcut
|
And that doesn't necessarily require magical power - it just requires belief in its magical power.
Then why does the Ring have such a powerful effect on Smeagol? He didn't know it was a magic ring until he put it on and vanished. And why did it prevent Bilbo from aging? He didn't know to expect that.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
May 27 2008, 4:45pm
Post #20 of 45
(1335 views)
Shortcut
|
I see Middle Earth as being in a middle-ground between the scientific and magical perspectives
I think Tolkien would indeed have had a lot of sympathy with the American Indian perspective you describe.
I like your quote:
"The difference between a Roman and an Etruscan is that a Roman believes that lightning is caused by clouds bumping together, whereas an Etruscan believes that clouds bump together in order to cause lightning."
I guess Etruscans, like the inhabitants of Middle-earth, see the clouds as being active participants in the weather, and not just the water droplets a scientist could show you, randomly jostling and causing lightning without any foresight or active decision on the part of the clouds or any other power (except the mathematical laws described by Chaos Theory, I suppose). I have to admit that I'm a Roman - but when I read LotR, I can put myself into the skin of an Etruscan. And that frees up my imagination to allow me to contemplate the deeper truths of the story without the cynicism that might otherwise cloud my judgement.
(I think this relates back to NEB's question regarding Don Quixote - DQ, as the first "modern novel", actually makes fun of the deeply held beliefs of earlier generations. There are no pure-of-heart heroes, no dragons, no magic, it seems to say. Don Quixote thinks he's a hero, but he's a fool. Ever since, there's been a thread of cynicism about these old beliefs running through the novel form, I think. Only in children's stories did the elves and dragons, and the ideal heroes, survive. Tolkien shows us how much we lost when we stopped believing, by finding a way to let us see the lost, pre-novelistic literary world in which those beliefs are real.)
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
May 27 2008, 4:58pm
Post #21 of 45
(1346 views)
Shortcut
|
Then why does the Ring have such a powerful effect on Smeagol? He didn't know it was a magic ring until he put it on and vanished. And why did it prevent Bilbo from aging? He didn't know to expect that.
I think for Smeagol, the sheer beauty of the ring was enough to make his greedy, thieving nature come to the fore. Except for the vanishing (which I agree has to be "magic"), the whole scene of Smeagol stealing the ring from Deagol doesn't involve anything magical - he just wants the ring because it's so beautiful, and it's his birthday. He feels entitled to it, and so he kills for it. Sadly, such things happen all the time.
As for the aging, who knows? Bilbo is from a long-lived family, I think. And he doesn't live much longer than the Old Took, if I remember correctly, even with the help of the Ring. In earlier times, slow aging, or long life, might well be ascribed to magic when in fact it was all in the genes! That wouldn't work for Gollum, though - 500 years can't be explained away so easily!
Some things (actually, when you think about it, mostly things inherited from The Hobbit) have to be magic. They are the kinds of things that are told in old folk tales, and these tales were believed to be true by those who told them.
I think Tolkien mixes it up quite a bit. Many times he leaves it open for the reader to decide if the magic is "real", other times he uses established magical devices from folk literature - what he has to do is allow the reader to give up their scoffing, cynical modern attitude to "magic" so that they can experience Middle-earth as its inhabitants do.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
Beren IV
Gondor
May 27 2008, 9:45pm
Post #22 of 45
(1330 views)
Shortcut
|
of how magic (and physics) works in Arda is more or less this:
As Dreamdeer points out, Eä is Ainulindalë given life by Ilúvitar. Because the Ainulindalë is music performed by the Ainur using their knowledge of the music, they can use it to alter reality at a fundamental level. In fact anyone who possesses knowledge of the Music and the power to perform it can alter reality thus. The basis for magic in Arda, therefore, or at least the basis for the true magic, is the Music: it is the basis of existence.
For reasons as Dreamdeer outlines, I am sure that the Valar possess awesome levels of knowledge about the universe. For example, Melkor and Yavana both seem very astute in the realm of genetics, Melkor especially. The reason why they hesitate to rely on knowledge of phyiscs is because they know physics to be alterable. Thus, they don't need to dispense high tech machines to their followers; in fact, they would be a liability.
The reason why the modern analog to Middle Earth is non-magical is thus simply that nobody who has the knowledge of the Music is fiddling with the laws of physics anymore.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 28 2008, 3:30am
Post #23 of 45
(1334 views)
Shortcut
|
Oh, there's a few shamanic types out there still doing a little fiddlin' with physics here and there...
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
|
|
|
Bladorthin
The Shire
May 31 2008, 6:38pm
Post #24 of 45
(1322 views)
Shortcut
|
Might we congratulate ourselves? We discuss these stories like they are some overarching, consuming reality. Tolkien wrote fabulous tales, tales in my opinion amongst the best ever penned, but even to him, their maker, they were precisely that; tales; stories, meant for enjoyment. He never intended for them to become the subjects of minor cults.
I'll wager he never thought about them so deeply as we do.
"A Wizard is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early; he arrives precisely when he means to!"
-Gandalf, The Fellowship of the Ring
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
May 31 2008, 9:49pm
Post #25 of 45
(1318 views)
Shortcut
|
You make a good point, that we should always remind ourselves this is a fictional universe designed to support tales. Likewise, Tolkien was occasionally dismayed at the enthusiasm with which his fans embraced Middle-earth as a place about which more could be known through speculation, argument, and logic.
I think you're wrong to hopefully guess that he did not "think about them so deeply." He did, as we see in his papers in The History of Middle-earth series, with their in-depth discussions of the cosmology, magic, genetics, linguistics and history of Arda, so-called. But even before all that became public, anyone who read the LotR Appendices straight through would be convinced that Tolkien enjoyed treating his creation as a "consuming reality" from time to time, at least.
He was, as I've said before, the uber-Geek!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
|
|
|
|
|
1
