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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 25, 10:17pm
Post #26 of 55
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Oops. Of course you have June 6. I'll do the 13th.
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I shouldn't get distracted mid-read and return later like I did.
Let me tackle the Voice of Saruman and its context.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 25, 10:40pm
Post #27 of 55
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oliphaunts can move rather fast
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oliphaunts can move rather fast, once they get up a head of steam
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
May 26, 2:16am
Post #28 of 55
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Now that's quite a terrifying mental image:
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Oliphaunts charging around with their heads full of steam . . .
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
May 26, 9:14pm
Post #29 of 55
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to refer back to, at least in passing. It makes it clear there were other wizards, and powerful ones, in Tolkien's mind quite a ways back. Unless that came in after his revision, post-LOTR?
Gandalf's reference to a council of wizards goes back to the beginning, but originally it was a council of good wizards, not white wizards, which I suppose suggests that in his mind there were also bad wizards.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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squire
Half-elven
May 26, 10:02pm
Post #30 of 55
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I too had something of a memory that the text had been changed, but checking I see it has not been. Every edition of The Hobbit, from the first to the present, has this comment by the narrator in the final chapter, telling us what Bilbo overheard from Elrond's and Gandalf's conversations:"...Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold..." (TH 19)
It seems clear that a so-called wizard is always good in this context, because the contrast is with the Necromancer, who is framed as their opponent: presumably a 'black wizard' and master of 'evil magic'.
So the color white as it is used here seems to refer to "good magic" by comparison with the legendary "black magic" of witches, the devil, etc. in western legend. It is not the same as when the color is applied to Saruman in the later book. In LotR only one wizard is white by cognomen and possibly clothing color, and the other two who are mentioned are grey and brown. We even will see that Gandalf changes his identity to white when he takes over the order of wizards from the fallen Saruman; in this scheme white is for one wizard only, the 'head of the order'.
As we know, this passage is the basis of the later idea of the "White Council" in LotR, which features just the two or three wizards that we are told of, supplemented by the high Elves. To me, the two concepts are not really consistent: The Hobbit passage about a 'great council of the white wizards' definitely implies a larger number of these wizards than three! And there are no High Elves in sight, this being The Hobbit.
Fan-fiction aside, it's clear in The Hobbit that Elrond, who is Half-Elven and not a wizard, was not in the council that drove out the Necromancer - else Gandalf would not have had to update him about the adventure. But The Lord of the Rings implies that, as one of the bearers of the Three, Elrond was a leading member of the later-conceived White Council - and so presumably was in on the Necromancer intervention. Tolkien let this inconsistency remain in TH out of sheer weariness, I think.
And of course, to add to the fun, there is that passage in Unfinished Tales' "The Istari" essay about lesser Rings, I mean lesser wizards -- oh, wait, this isn't the Saruman discussion yet. Sorry.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
May 26, 10:14pm
Post #31 of 55
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If you check in John Rateliff's book you will see that the original draft says "good wizards" not "white wizards."
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
May 26, 11:23pm
Post #32 of 55
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That would have been very, very interesting,
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if "bad wizards" had made it into his published works. But perhaps that would be just one too many sets of good/bad beings. Perhaps Sauron filled that role instead to some extent. And certainly Saruman, in his own way, did so.
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squire
Half-elven
May 27, 12:28am
Post #33 of 55
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I had assumed your "originally" referred to The Hobbit's publication history, where a number of passages and lines in the first edition were later revised to conform better with LotR.
Looking at the draft in Rateliff's work - thanks for the reference - I wonder if "good wizards" is really all that different from "white wizards ... masters of good magic"? Why would Tolkien have made that minor change from his first draft? Both imply that there are bad magicians, whether called wizards or not. Of course the obvious example is their adversary here, the Necromancer, "that black sorcerer" as Gandalf describes him to Bilbo earlier in the book.
It certainly had nothing to do with Saruman being White - no Saruman at that time - nor with the later White Council - no Elves expelled the Necromancer in Gandalf's account of the affair to Elrond in TH.
Maybe he just liked the alliteration? Better style, for style's sake? I wouldn't put it past him, especially given his known fondness for writing prose that reads well out loud.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 27, 1:18am
Post #34 of 55
(1069 views)
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I too had something of a memory that the text had been changed, but checking I see it has not been. Every edition of The Hobbit, from the first to the present, has this comment by the narrator in the final chapter, telling us what Bilbo overheard from Elrond's and Gandalf's conversations: "...Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold..." (TH 19) It seems clear that a so-called wizard is always good in this context, because the contrast is with the Necromancer, who is framed as their opponent: presumably a 'black wizard' and master of 'evil magic'. So the color white as it is used here seems to refer to "good magic" by comparison with the legendary "black magic" of witches, the devil, etc. in western legend. It is not the same as when the color is applied to Saruman in the later book. In LotR only one wizard is white by cognomen and possibly clothing color, and the other two who are mentioned are grey and brown. We even will see that Gandalf changes his identity to white when he takes over the order of wizards from the fallen Saruman; in this scheme white is for one wizard only, the 'head of the order'. As we know, this passage is the basis of the later idea of the "White Council" in LotR, which features just the two or three wizards that we are told of, supplemented by the high Elves. To me, the two concepts are not really consistent: The Hobbit passage about a 'great council of the white wizards' definitely implies a larger number of these wizards than three! And there are no High Elves in sight, this being The Hobbit. Fan-fiction aside, it's clear in The Hobbit that Elrond, who is Half-Elven and not a wizard, was not in the council that drove out the Necromancer - else Gandalf would not have had to update him about the adventure. But The Lord of the Rings implies that, as one of the bearers of the Three, Elrond was a leading member of the later-conceived White Council - and so presumably was in on the Necromancer intervention. Tolkien let this inconsistency remain in TH out of sheer weariness, I think. And of course, to add to the fun, there is that passage in Unfinished Tales' "The Istari" essay about lesser Rings, I mean lesser wizards -- oh, wait, this isn't the Saruman discussion yet. Sorry.
The idea of a large group of "white wizards" also seems to play into an early concept Tolkien had for the Istari that is still present in his essay (appropriately titled "The Istari"). There, he refers to an uncounted number of Istari, of which five of them were the chief (Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast and the two "Blue Wizards").
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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elentari3018
Rohan
May 28, 2:50am
Post #35 of 55
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Will plan for June 20 if not taken already.
Sharkey and the Shire- i love the Shire personally and the Scouring of the Shire is one of my fave and most heartbreaking chapters. We can see how the wizard started to wreck havoc there.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 28, 3:46pm
Post #36 of 55
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Thank you, Valiant Volunteer #2! //
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~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 28, 3:47pm
Post #37 of 55
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Thank you Valiant Volunteer #3!
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Enjoy! Leading a discussion is a great way to organise your thoughts (and then have them re-arranged y the discussion)!
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 28, 4:41pm
Post #38 of 55
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Just "27 June, Valiant Volunteer #4" to fill now... //
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~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 5, 3:07pm
Post #39 of 55
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What shall we do with the last week (27 June)?
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The existing idea is: "Saruman in other texts - our by now usual survey of the Appendices, and any other writings by Tolkien that are relevant to the character under study. Plus anything else that this leader thinks could benefit from further examination"
But nobody has volunteered (as yet).
And I note that some of those 'other texts' have already been coming up naturally and usefully this week, as we try to understand Saruman's behaviour as told to the Council of Elrond. (I have no regrets about this material being discussed this week btw- it would have seemed silly to ask people not to, especially when we don't know if the 27 June discussion will even happen).
Does anyone want to take on that last week and do something different with it?
We have already got a programme that will reach the end of Saruman's story in the main text, so the last week can be fairly standalone
That also means if we stop after "20 June, elentari3018 Sharkey - Saruman's schemes in The Shire, his confrontation with Frodo and his death. (To the end of the main text, not including appendices)" it does not seem like a big problem.
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"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 18, 10:37am
Post #40 of 55
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Last call for "27 June, Valiant Volunteer #4 Saruman in other texts"
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I'd like to put out a last call for anyone who wants to lead that week's discussion.
The original idea was to discuss "Saruman in other texts - our by now usual survey of the Appendices, and any other writings by Tolkien that are relevant to the character under study. Plus anything else that this leader thinks could benefit from further examination."
But that can be varied, if there is something better to do about Saruman in that week.
If nobody wants to / is available to do it, then not to worry. I will post a short starter inviting everyone to raise any Saruman topics that could benefit from further examination, or to share any thoughts and impressions from the discussion as a whole.
The discussion could then cover Saruman in other texts insofar as people want to contribute that. But it won't be necessary for someone to do the research and writing to produce the high-quality overview that has become the conventional starter for these character studies.
And I would like to write something about the nature of villains and villany in Middle-earth using Saruman for example and compare/contrast purposes. (Haven't fully thought that out yet, so can't say exactly what it will be like). So we can be sure we will have something to discuss w/b 27th!
So - just sit tight if you would be happy with the above outcome. But if you would rather be Valiant Volunteer #4, please say so quickly - lets say by 20 June so as to leave time to prepare for the 27th.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 18, 3:23pm
Post #42 of 55
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That would be great! Thank you!
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I'll do that thing about villany another time (unless, when I get my ideas in order it turns out that they are so simple that they are just a comment to make in one of the discussons!)
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jun 18, 3:29pm)
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jun 18, 5:03pm
Post #43 of 55
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As I am caught in the ricochet period between one child's wedding (last night) and second child's wedding in 3 weeks, I may not be able to weigh in much; but I'm very grateful that this week is covered, and I'm really looking forward to reading your post. Saruman has been far more fascinating than I anticipated (and after all that's come out in the discussions, I'm now surprised that I was surprised!).
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jun 18, 8:38pm
Post #44 of 55
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Looking forward to another good week of Saruman. Quite a lot has come out of this!
I've prepped for the first week of a two-stage visit with Treebeard. Do you think we should start on July 4th or skip a week and go with July 11th? I've got to post up and see if anyone wants to handle the second section.
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jun 18, 9:42pm
Post #45 of 55
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I'll miss it the week of the 4rth, with
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kid's wedding on the 8th and family coming in, but honestly, don't delay it for me. I'll be able to catch up with it all on Monday. 
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jun 18, 10:17pm
Post #46 of 55
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No no we can't go on without you
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Other folks may have activities that week as well, to take advantage of days off work. Let's aim for the 11th, which is the day before oliphaunt's birthday.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jun 19, 2:12am
Post #47 of 55
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Why, thank you! But I'm really not
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at all indispensable. Just do what works out best for the most.
Ah, an Oliphaunt Birthday! You must inform us of the customs and ceremonies common to these celebrations, so we can honor your event appropriately.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jun 19, 12:06pm
Post #48 of 55
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I'm honored you want to attend a traditional oliphaunt birthday bash.
You'll enjoy all the singing and dancing! I hope you'll participate! Bring your children!
Pack a bathing suit if you want to be a part of the water ballet!
If you wish to contribute to the potluck, a truckload of mangos, bananas, and melons would be lovely.
I do recommend earplugs, steel-toe boots, and a hard hat, as these gatherings can become rather enthusiastic.
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
(This post was edited by oliphaunt on Jun 19, 12:20pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 19, 3:06pm
Post #49 of 55
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Pausing it for the week of 4th July sounds sensible...
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...if a lot of US forum members might be busy with their holidays. I don't think a short pause does any harm, especially f folks know when things are going to resume.
Would this small pause before doing Treebeard be an ent-racte?
Especially if there was some music to play while we waited.
Worth making sure the board knows you want a leader for the second week, Treebeard the General.
I think he was a Tree-Star General. Maybe that is as high as an ent could get promoted. (But if he were an entwife he could have been a Field Marshall, which is more senior, probably)
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"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jun 19, 11:37pm
Post #50 of 55
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the hard hats?
I want to see an Oliphaunt doing water ballet. Or any ballet. Or tap or jazz, contemporary, modern, or lyrical. (I wonder what water tap would be like. Oh, wait . . ." 
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