|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
May 18 2023, 6:03pm
Post #1 of 55
(3977 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I propose a Saruman character study
|
Can't Post
|
|
There's a Pollantir asking people to suggest further characters for the Character Study treatment. -- have you seen that and voted?
While that goes on I quite fancy doing the first bit of a programme I suggested earlier for Saruman.
I could have something ready to post for Tuesday 30th May. If other forum members felt like writing starter posts for the rest of the programme, that would give us the following discussions:
- 30 May, NoWizardMe Saruman's betrayal of Gandalf (in the chaotic conversation the two wizards have in Orthanc, as reported by Gandalf to the Council of Elrond) - chapters covered: Council of Elrond. Mention as required of UT/The Hunt For The Ring which overlaps these events from a different point of view. (And from a later period in Tolkien's work when he'd made up more stuff he hadn't necessarily invented when he wrote Gandalf's account.) But the study is focused on what a reader gets from Council of Elrond, and there is no expectation that everyone has to read (or re-read) Hunt For The Ring (I'm certainly not going to).
- 6 June, oliphaunt Saruman's career as a Power. We don't 'see' him appear directly in a chapter or scene, but the threat he poses and his schemes and actions are discussed by the Fellowship, by characters at Edoras, and by Treebeard. Chapters covered: up to Flotsam and Jetsam, inclusive
- 13 June, CuriousG Saruman stuck in Orthanc (mostly The Voice of Saruman, with its inversions of the two wizards' last conversation. But also Gandalf's speculations to Pippin about what Saruman might do, and other comments about his predicament) Chapters covered: up to Many Partings inclusive (a long section, but mich of it is Saruman-free)
- 20 June, elentari3018 Sharkey - Saruman's schemes in The Shire, his confrontation with Frodo and his death. (To the end of the main text, not including appendices)
- 27 June, Voronwë_the_Faithful Saruman in other texts - our by now usual survey of the Appendices, and any other writings by Tolkien that are relevant to the character under study. Plus anything else that this leader thinks could benefit from further examination.
Valiant Volunteers assemble, if you wish! Recent experience is that there's lots of interest in discussions once those are started. The problem is getting started (organiser, agreed programme, leaders for each week).
As an ex-organiser I'm noticing that we have relied heavily on the same few leaders, and that usually results in people getting tired out. So I hope that more people will take a turn, if they'd like these discussions to continue*.
And please would an Admin edit the text above to reflect any Valiant Volunteers who have identified themselves?
I'll offer an apology up front - I can write and post the first week starter, but I don't know that I shall be able to respond promptly to the responses. With any luck there will be a good number of peoepl wanting to discuss things, and that shouldn't matter. Anyway, better than nothing happening, I reckon.
~~~
*I do realise that leading a week is not something that every forum member can do. Maybe it is a downside of this project that there isn't really a way of supporting it other than writing something, but I can't think of a solution for that.
Obviously, if someone has a good idea for a different format that is easier to contribute to -- let's call that [x] -- they should suggest it and see if anyone wants to help them run it. I'm not looking here for suggestions of [x] so that I can run them for other people: I'm an ex-organiser not an [x]-organiser 
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by dernwyn on Jun 19 2023, 4:05pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 18 2023, 7:44pm
Post #2 of 55
(3869 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Saruman as inferred from The Hobbit?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Is the reference to a "great council of white wizards" in The Hobbit enough to start off the discussion (or even include at all)? Or is that just too vague? I suspect that latter.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 18 2023, 7:46pm)
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
May 18 2023, 10:31pm
Post #3 of 55
(3856 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Well, I don't see why it wouldn't be relevant
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
to refer back to, at least in passing. It makes it clear there were other wizards, and powerful ones, in Tolkien's mind quite a ways back. Unless that came in after his revision, post-LOTR?
|
|
|
oliphaunt
Lorien
May 18 2023, 11:30pm
Post #4 of 55
(3849 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I'd be glad to serve as a inexpert for a June 6 (or 13)
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Lately I've been mulling over Gandalf and Saruman, and, generally, "what is a wizard?" in the text. Trying to separate it from, say, my culturally informed concept of a "wizard". Or informed by Christopher Lee's Saruman. Or colored by John Howe, Ted Nasmith, Alan Lee. How can, or should, I read a wizard differently than I do a man, a hobbit, an elf, an ent?
We've been looking at human characters for a while: Boromir, Eowyn, Denethor. So to move on to other denizens of Middle Earth, I "voted" for Treebeard and would organize a discussion for the old Ent. Spending some time with Saruman would segue into Treebeard well, since they were neighbors. I'll serve as an inexpert and foolishly valiantly volunteer for June 6.
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
May 18 2023, 11:55pm
Post #5 of 55
(3847 views)
Shortcut
|
Yes, that sounds Iike a good segue--plus it would be pretty hard to discuss Treebeard with no reference to Saruman.
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
May 19 2023, 12:02am
Post #6 of 55
(3849 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Not sure I can do any this time around, with 2 weddings:
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
1 son, 1 daughter, 1 in June and 1 in July; plus my violin students' recital on June 14th.
But I should be free to join in with comments. Saruman fascinates me--although I'm mad at him much of the time . . . 
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on May 19 2023, 12:08am)
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
May 19 2023, 12:07am
Post #7 of 55
(3847 views)
Shortcut
|
|
On the Pollantir, we actually have Faramir
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
leading the pack right now, so I think it would be a good idea to schedule him as soon as possible after Saruman (and maybe Treebeard?). I'd hate to lose people because we're not paying any attention to the polls. But I think some of us, anyway, may need a break from all things Gondor for a bit, if only to get a fresh or at least refreshed look at things when we come back to it.
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
May 19 2023, 4:03pm
Post #8 of 55
(3812 views)
Shortcut
|
That would fit nicely into the last week of discussion, for example...
Or, it might fit in the first week. I have a particular approach in mind for 'my' week, and Hobbit inferences probably won't fit all that neatly into what I plan to write. Or, it might, according to what I do actually end up writing!
But of course people can raise anything they think is relevant in replies, and that's good because the starter post is meant to stimulate a conversation, not circumscribe or dominate it. We just need to be careful not to steal the thunder from a future week, where that probem can easily be forseen.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
May 19 2023, 4:10pm
Post #9 of 55
(3803 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It's good if organisers can take a rest from time to time
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I can only speak for myself, but although the actual work of organising things is not huge, it can sometimes feel like a thankless task and if you're not careful the feeling of responsibility to keep things going can start to get the better of you.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
May 19 2023, 4:19pm
Post #10 of 55
(3799 views)
Shortcut
|
Which would you most like to do? If you don't mind, would you do the 6th (2nd week of discussion)? Just because that gives us 2 weeks squared away with no gaps.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
May 19 2023, 4:25pm
Post #11 of 55
(3799 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It's not the organizing, it's the creating a good post
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
that I don't think I'll have time for this round. However, if If no one takes the last 2, I might be able to manage the 20th.
You're right, the organizing isn't that bad.
|
|
|
oliphaunt
Lorien
May 19 2023, 4:54pm
Post #12 of 55
(3794 views)
Shortcut
|
Ok 6th it is. I'll start reading up!
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
|
|
|
elentari3018
Rohan
May 20 2023, 12:29am
Post #13 of 55
(3784 views)
Shortcut
|
Saruman is interesting character to explore kinda like Denethor so it'll be interesting to learn about his other side? haha
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
|
|
|
elentari3018
Rohan
May 20 2023, 12:29am
Post #14 of 55
(3782 views)
Shortcut
|
|
yes, i look forward to Faramir and maybe i'll lead a discussion
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
though i'm also an inexpert and will try my best.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
May 20 2023, 1:47am
Post #15 of 55
(3775 views)
Shortcut
|
They're 7 years apart in age, so why everything came together just now, I have no idea. But all 4 kids get along as if they'd known each other all their lives. It's a good thing.
Ah, yes! Saruman of many sides, as well as colors, perhaps!
|
|
|
elentari3018
Rohan
May 20 2023, 11:12am
Post #16 of 55
(3736 views)
Shortcut
|
|
wow that is most coincidental!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
You have to get the party shoes out! Is it Tolkien themed by any chance? (Mine had many Tolkien elements haha)
have fun and take many pics! :)
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
May 20 2023, 2:59pm
Post #17 of 55
(3722 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Yeah, it's been very interesting
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
to watch it all come together. One kid loves Tolkien, the other merely likes. But neither is doing a Tolkien theme; however, my son and his bride-to-be are doing a pirate themed wedding, to the extent of requesting that guests reserve any eye patches and large pirate hats for the reception. 
|
|
|
elentari3018
Rohan
May 20 2023, 6:57pm
Post #18 of 55
(3711 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I had "no admittance except on party business" sign, ME table land signs,
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
one ring cake, Frodo poster, green flowers, turquoise bridesmaid dresses, but we are going off topic. :P Mine was very Middle-earth like though i'm the fan and my husband isn't. Oh, and Gandalf officiated. ;)
I look forward to next discussion! So seems like we are doing Saruman?
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
May 20 2023, 8:39pm
Post #19 of 55
(3705 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Fabulous! Proves Gandalf is still interested
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
in the affairs of humans.  You should post pics of Off-Topic sometime.
Yes, I think Saruman (likely immediately followed by Treebeard) is next to discuss, as long as he doesn't try to officiate at one of my kids' weddings!
Then possibly Faramir, and then if people are up for a long one at that point, Frodo, or Frodo+ Sam. But that could all change--it's just how it kinda looks right now.
|
|
|
elentari3018
Rohan
May 21 2023, 3:00am
Post #20 of 55
(3676 views)
Shortcut
|
I will be following. :)
lol Saruman at your kids' weddings! that'll be quite a sight!
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
May 21 2023, 4:28pm
Post #21 of 55
(3634 views)
Shortcut
|
as security guards.
And yes about the discussions. So glad people want to keep them going!
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
May 25 2023, 1:47am
Post #22 of 55
(3479 views)
Shortcut
|
|
2 weddings in a month sounds both exciting and daunting. Congrats! //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
May 25 2023, 1:49am
Post #23 of 55
(3481 views)
Shortcut
|
|
NoValiantVolunteerMe : 6 June, Valiant Volunteer #1
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I keep trying to put thoughts down on Saruman as a power since that topic interests me most. Still a bit scattered and missing the mark, but I'll will nonetheless pledge to do it one way or the other.
|
|
|
oliphaunt
Lorien
May 25 2023, 1:16pm
Post #25 of 55
(3470 views)
Shortcut
|
Erm, I already worked that up after NoWiz's request on May 19th and would rather not start over. Could you do #3 on the 13th June?
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
(This post was edited by oliphaunt on May 25 2023, 1:19pm)
|
|
|
|
|
1
