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Eledhwen
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Mar 29 2023, 2:05pm
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Éowyn and the role of women in LOTR
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Belatedly, here I go with the last discussion on Éowyn. We've talked a lot already about how she's represented, but it would be good to put her portrayal into the context of how Tolkien portrays women generally in LOTR, and also how she developed.
Development
So I've gone back to the History of LOTR for a quick flick through to find out about how the Éowyn we know in the final book came about. Interestingly, in the early drafts, she's there with the same familial relationship to Théoden and Éomer, but she goes through several versions before she becomes the final person we've been talking about.
In the original plan, Éowyn's love for Aragorn was to be reciprocated and she was to be called 'Eowyn Elfsheen' - but in the first drafts, as detailed in 'The Treason of Isengard', she wouldn't even appear until after Théoden's funeral! Later she's added when they arrive in Edoras first and then Tolkien later adds "Eowyn goes as Amazon [to Minas Tirith]". And originally, she was to have a cousin - Théoden's daughter Idis, who gets written out after saying precisely nothing, possibly because an underdeveloped Éowyn was already more developed than Idis.
When Aragorn first sees Éowyn he's captivated and when she goes he stares after her "taking little heed of other things". Tolkien's draft outline goes on to suggest that they marry, before he changes his mind:
? Cut out the love-story of Aragorn and Eowyn. Aragorn is too old and lordly and grim. Make Eowyn the twin-sister of Eomund, a stern amazon woman. [..] Probably Eowyn should die to avenge or save Theoden.
Christopher then notes that his father added "in a hasty scribble the possibility that Aragorn did indeed love Eowyn, and never wedded after her death".
Moving on to 'The War of the Ring', which details the drafts of ROTK, Éowyn is mostly just sketched out. It's clear that early on - presumably after deciding she would be an Amazon instead of Queen of Gondor - Tolkien knew she would be present on the Pelennor and kill the Nazgul, but it doesn't seem that she was going to ride as Dernhelm until later in the writing process.
Christopher's notes say: It is clear ... that at this stage Merry was to go with the Rohirrim to Minas Tirith opnly, with the concurrence of Théoden, and without any assistance from Éowyn. This does not mean, of course, that Éowyn was not present among the Riders in disguise, although no covert reference is made to her in this original account of the departure from Harrowdale; and indeed her death before Minas Tirith had been long foreseen.
A bit later on, Merry is assigned to ride with a "light" Rider, who is probably but not explictly Éowyn. And then that plan gets abandoned and she's coming openly to Minas Tirith. And then that plan is also abandoned, and a mysterious young rider is first named 'Grimhelm' before later becoming 'Dernhelm'. Eventually, Dernhelm is obviously Éowyn, but it took Tolkien a while to get there.
Éowyn's original words to the Nazgul are not terribly good, but this predates much of the rest of his planning - future drafts are closer to the final book:
I do not fear thee, Shadow. Nor him that devoured thee. Go back to him and report that his shadows and dwimor-lakes are powerless even to frighten women.
Doesn't exactly paint women in a great light!
Originally, she was to die here, but after a bit of reworking Tolkien saves her. And then, as he seems to be now confident that Aragorn isn't going to marry her, his early drafts of 'The Steward and the King' have her meeting Faramir pretty much as published, albeit with a few tweaks to the wording - she originally confessed "I love or have loved another" rather than "I wished to be loved by another". From there, there's relatively little mention of her in the History - and indeed in ROTK.
Q1: How different would the tale have been if Eowyn hadn't really been present until popping up as Aragorn's bride much later?
Q2: How significant is it, especially given the criticism of Tolkien over the years that there isn't enough female representation in LOTR, that he actively moved away from the trope of Éowyn as love interest to making her a warrior and a major player in the death of the Nazgul?
Q3: What would have been the effect of Éowyn dying on the Pelennor when it comes to later actions of Éomer, Aragorn, and the ultimate effect on Faramir's story?
The women of LOTR
Éowyn is clearly one of the best-developed women in the story - maybe the best-developed. Yet while there aren't many women, I'd suggest (as a woman) that all the female characters in LOTR and indeed in the wider legendarium are pretty bad-ass, strong women.
- Éowyn: a warrior, not afraid to stand up for what she believes in; flawed, yes, and proud, but imbued with deep love for her uncle, brother, and ultimately Faramir alongside the random scruffy Ranger who rocks up at her door.
- Galadriel: literally one of the most powerful people in Middle-earth, definitely the leader in her marriage and of her people; wise, kind and also tough as nails (think of what she went through in the First Age).
- Arwen: okay, we don't see much of her in the books proper, but she's loyal and I like to think takes after her grandmother.
- Goldberry: very much an equal partner to Tom Bombadil. Powerful in her own way, appreciates the good things in life, like decent food and nature; also a generous hostess!
- Rosie Cotton: doesn't take any rubbish from Sam and really steers him into their relationship. Practical and full of common sense.
- Ioreth: forget what stupid men say, she knows what she thinks and she's not afraid to speak up. I bet she's been running the Houses of Healing for years while letting the Warden think he's in charge.
- Shelob: everyone's scared of her, she's got all the orcs running around supplying food - perfect arrangement.
And that's without mentioning your Lúthiens, your Morwen Eledhwens (there's a reason I picked my nick), etc. etc.
Q4: We live in a world where we're closing in (though have not yet achieved) on equality of gender and race - should we read LOTR from the modern sensibility, or consider that when LOTR was published women had only had the vote in the UK for a couple of decades, that women had only been awarded degrees at his university since 1920, and that women's roles in war (for LOTR is after all a kind of war story) remained mostly on the home front? I'd argue that in many ways Éowyn and the other women who feature are remarkable in this light, and particularly Éowyn. She goes to battle and is heroic at a time when it was unthinkable for a woman to do such a thing.
Q5: And related - how important is it that modern fantasy authors make an effort at representation and diversity in their writing? Can you think of any notable female characters Éowyn might have inspired over the years?
Tolkien on Éowyn and women in his life
I've just flicked through the indexes of my various Tolkien reference books, including a couple of Tom Shippey books and the Carpenter biography, and they barely mention Éowyn or the other female characters. There are a couple of references to her in the Letters.
In Letter 131, a loooong description of the legendarium written in 1951, he mentions Éowyn's "mistaken love" for Aragorn, adding he will not defend it.
In Letter 244 he defends the speed in which Éowyn and Faramir fall in love:
In my experience feelings and decisions ripen very quickly (as measured by mere 'clock-time', which is actually not justly applicable) in periods of great stress, and especially under the expectation of imminent death. And I do not think that persons of high estate and breeding need all the petty fencing and approaches in matters of 'love'. This tale does not deal with a period of 'Courtly Love' and its pretences; but with a culture more primitive (sc. less corrupt) and nobler.
Q6: We know Tolkien himself fell hard and fast for Edith and their love is represented in Beren & Lúthien, but is there an element of it in Faramir and Éowyn too?
Q7: Do you agree that in times of stress decisions are made faster? Does this explain a lot of Éowyn's story?
For now I've run out of time, but I hope these questions and quotes will give us a starting point to put Éowyn into the wider context of women in Middle-earth. And maybe one last question ...
Q8: Is Éowyn the most significant, or 'best' female character in all Tolkien's writings?
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Asger
Rivendell
Mar 29 2023, 5:01pm
Post #2 of 39
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Lobelia Sackville Baggins, who stood up to Sharkeys men and went to prison!
"Don't take life seriously, it ain't nohow permanent!" Pogo
www.willy-centret.dk
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Eledhwen
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Mar 29 2023, 6:00pm
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Of course - how could I forget Lobelia? A remarkable and redoutable hobbit, if overly fond of spoons.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 29 2023, 11:03pm
Post #4 of 39
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16 loud cheers and a lifelong subscription to Spoon of the Month club!
I was never more shocked to find her a hero in the end, not because of gender but of character.
However, yes, Tolkien does not shy away from women as heroes, although as you make note of in his evolution of thought on Eowyn, it may have been something of a process of self-enlightenment.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Mar 29 2023, 11:57pm
Post #5 of 39
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I'm fascinated to learn how Eowyn grew into her role. A reflection of the author growing his remarkable imagination, breaking Eowyn further and further out of her 'expected' role. Perhaps her earlier milder character was still reflected in the way she was treated by the men around her after slaying the Black Rider and his terrible beast?
How strong is But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am
versus
...powerless even to frighten women
Any claims that "there isn't enough female representation in LOTR" is nonsense. True there aren't a lot of "NPC" females - undeveloped background characters. But in a book largely about war, that's hardly surprising. The women we meet are ( I almost said well-developed, but that didn't sound quite right) strong characters. They are not going to wander off and vanish like the Entwives. Speaking of which, were the Entwives a cautionary tale for Middle Earth, for the readers, or the author himself as he was writing the story?
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
(This post was edited by oliphaunt on Mar 29 2023, 11:57pm)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Mar 30 2023, 3:52am
Post #6 of 39
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Regarding “mistaken love” and Eowen’s love arc
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I have a notion, probably more of an UUT: Eowen’s love for Aragorn is Tolkien’s attempt to give shape to the idea of love for one’s lord. Such love is wrapped in a sense of duty, but it is more than duty, and unstinting.
Eowen doesn’t love Aragorn, or Theoden for that matter, because it is required or demanded of her (or anyone else in the realm). Rather it is a deep, abiding love whose object evokes that love. It is inexplicable, and easy to confuse with romantic love, or attraction. Eowen though, just as she was shaped to be heroic, was also bred to this response: that she love her lord utterly, whomever they may be, if ever she should be blessed enough to have one.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Mar 30 2023, 3:58am)
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Eledhwen
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Mar 30 2023, 1:31pm
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I don't think that's UUT at all
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In fact I think it's a very solid theory. Especially as Aragorn displays all the best qualities of a lord - he's brave, tall, good-looking, commands respect and loyalty, and is not arrogant with it - although confident in his own abilities. He's exactly the sort of chap a girl like Éowyn should be falling in love with. And Faramir is very similar in many ways, just a bit more approachable, so also not surprising she easily plumps for him as a second choice.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 30 2023, 6:11pm
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I thought it was interesting that once Tolkien had noted that Eowyn would go to the battle "as an amazon", that never changed again. He considered whether she died or lived on the battlefield, and the nature and outcome of her relationship with Aragorn changed about.
But not that she was a warrior.
That's the impression I have of Tolkien's writing method generally. Reading HoME we see him trying to work out "what can the story be?" but then events become fixed, and he's working out how that can be the story. It's as if it became 'true' that Eowyn went to battle, and now (like an historical novelest) he's working out why, and what it felt like.
Furthering that thought, I think it's probable that Tolkien invented this character and became interested in how she worked out her predicament. I think that's more likely than what another author would do: start with an idea, point, enthusiasm or agenda about women (in this case) and then invent a character to explore or demonstrate it.
That's not to say that Eowyn lacks thematic significances should readers wish to pick them - in an earlier discussion I quoted an article that argues "Eowyn is, quite simply, the personification of [a theme of a] struggle between ambition and self-sacrifice." I haven't anythin new to say other than agreeing with that.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Mar 30 2023, 8:54pm
Post #9 of 39
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Q6: We know Tolkien himself fell hard and fast for Edith and their love is represented in Beren & Lúthien, but is there an element of it in Faramir and Éowyn too?
Yes, I'd agree with that. Maybe in every successful love interest he wrote about.
Q7: Do you agree that in times of stress decisions are made faster? Does this explain a lot of Éowyn's story?
My parents married right before Daddy had to report Army duty after his draft number was picked. Plenty of accelerated romances during war, or any other desperate time.
Faramir told Eowyn:
It may be that only a few days are left ere darkness falls upon our world, and when it comes I hope to face it steadily; but it would ease my heart, if while the sun yet shines, I could see you still.
Q8: Is Éowyn the most significant, or 'best' female character in all Tolkien's writings?
I'd say the most relatable. She is human, without supernatural powers, she makes mistakes, feels real inner pain, and matures. Just like any other woman. Oh, and along the way kills a terrible undead monster.
I enjoy Goldberry, and she is a great hostess, but one could see her as a bit of a mail-order-bride to Tom Bombadil. Arwen is a terrific seamstress, so good in fact that the Dead get up to follow her banner (and Aragorn, who was lucky enough to have been gifted it). But Arwen, unlike Luthien and Eowyn was obedient and stayed home. Even at my best, I'm less obedient than Arwen. And Galadriel, I love Galadriel but she is too high and far above to relate. I do want to mention another very powerful female in LOTR. Shelob. Shelob is the un-Galadriel, dark where Galadriel is light. Even at my worst I'm a lot nicer than Shelob.
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
(This post was edited by oliphaunt on Mar 30 2023, 9:04pm)
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Eledhwen
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Mar 30 2023, 9:49pm
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Fitting the story around her - having ditched the idea of her marrying Aragorn, he then wanted to give this 'Amazon' purpose. Although it is interesting he never ditched the idea of her falling in love with Aragorn entirely.
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Eledhwen
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Mar 30 2023, 9:54pm
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Or is Rosie Cotton more relatable?
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Or would we rather identify with Éowyn because she's both very human but also kind of cool, whereas Rosie stays at home? I suspect most of us would acknowledge at heart we're more Rosie Cottons, but would like to be Éowyns (and yes, I always thought if I ever got married, which so far hasn't happened, I might look for a dress rather like the white one she wears standing on Edoras in the movies).
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Mar 30 2023, 10:13pm
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Eowyn as the future of Middle Earth.
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Galadriel is diminishing and going into the West. The Elves are fading ways. Goldberry was never going to leave home. The Entwives are already gone. Shelob is dead. It is Men who will continue on in Middle Earth. Rosie Cotton will bear children, and for a time Hobbits have a place. They are close to Men. But it is Men who are the power going forward. Arwen, having given up her Elvish immortality is more-or-less human. Eowyn, and her descendants, are the future.
I think that's why Faramir and Eowyn had to turn to healing, nurturing, gardening. These are the behaviors that will build a future for Middle Earth. Sam and Rosie took charge of the gardening and healing of the Shire. That this is being done by couples is important. Otherwise, well, read the cautionary tale of the Ents and Entwives. Is it no coincidence that the confirmed bachelors, Bilbo and Frodo and Gandalf head off into the West?
Speaking of gardening, do you suppose they had Mother Middle-Earth News? Farmer Maggots Almanac?
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
(This post was edited by oliphaunt on Mar 30 2023, 10:27pm)
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Mar 30 2023, 10:30pm
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Not so sure, I haven't slain a fell beast, but am a bit more travelled than Rosie. My choice for a Middle Earth home was always Rohan, with holidays in Ithilien.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Apr 1 2023, 9:04pm
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Thanks for the evolutionary record!
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I had no idea; but it is a fairly logical progression, and really, really interesting.
Not a fan of the of the " even to frighten women" line, though! Perhaps Tolkien evolved along with Eowyn!
I do, and always have appreciated his ability to portray a female character like Eowyn convincingly, including a pretty accurate depiction of what someone of her type would likely feel and experience--the inner thoughts and emotions. I wonder if there were women he knew that expanded his understanding beyond the norms of his time, or did he simply try to put himself in her shoes?
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Eledhwen
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Apr 2 2023, 12:45pm
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I suspect she was awesome, and as well as making her Lúthien - who's almost flawless really - he also wrote Éowyn as a more relatable and human version. But I'm massively speculating as there is zero evidence I could find!
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Apr 2 2023, 8:48pm
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That really makes a lot of sense.
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Either way, we know she was an influence in many important respects. It wouldn't be at all surprising.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 3 2023, 6:49pm
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Tolkien and Tokenism (kidding)
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Hey Wiz! Thanks for organizing this discussion.
As I'm still digesting Eledhen's provocative post, I'm kicking around the idea of the Amazon in Tolkien. On first glance it seems that he had one, and only one, Amazon warrior, and one can imagine he heaved a sigh of relief to "check off that box" once he jotted down Eowyn's nature, except he didn't.
My murky memory can dredge up earlier drafts of the Fall of Gondolin where Idril, bless her heart, wanted to join the doomed battle in her own magnificent armor. And among the various drafts of Galadriel, one included her taking up weapons and fighting Feanor's renegade troops in Aman attacking the Teleri to seize their ships. There must be other examples with other women. So I guess my own conclusion is that as a writer, he was glad he finally came to a point where he could make the idea work with high emotional impact. I personally don't buy the story that Dernhelm could conceal her gender from Merry, but I don't care, because her big reveal to and subsequent combat with the Witch-king on the Pelennor lives in my mind as one of Tolkien's Top 10 Greatest Moments.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 3 2023, 7:19pm
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I think that's why Faramir and Eowyn had to turn to healing, nurturing, gardening. These are the behaviors that will build a future for Middle Earth. Sam and Rosie took charge of the gardening and healing of the Shire. That this is being done by couples is important. Otherwise, well, read the cautionary tale of the Ents and Entwives. Is it no coincidence that the confirmed bachelors, Bilbo and Frodo and Gandalf head off into the West?
Nice observation, Oliphaunt. I think when we think of any couple of love, fertility comes to mind at least in the abstract. So vaguely, we think about children, but there's also the fertility of the land and cultures to think about. The couples you point out are instrumental in their restoration of their realms' prosperity for that reason. Eowyn's great summation of her new path in life in Ithilien:
'I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren.’
I have heard criticism that Eowyn's character arc has her going from doing manly things (battle) to doing feminine things (becoming a pacifist gardener), as if Tolkien is putting the uppity female back in her place, but that criticism somehow leaves out that her warrior-prince husband did exactly the same thing. What's good for the goose...
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 3 2023, 7:43pm
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Thanks for such a thought-provoking write-up, Eledhwen. I've been away long enough from the Rdg Room that I forgot how reading other people's thoughts here made my own thoughts bounce wildly around the room like ping pong balls. So, after cleaning up the inevitable broken mirrors and smashed crockery, I will try to answer in a non-chaotic way.
First, thanks also for providing the history of Eowyn's character development. Such important twists and turns in Tolkien's thinking! Any time I tackle a what-if, I have to admit to myself that I accept LOTR as is, so if Eowyn was "just a war-bride," I would think about her as much as I do Arwen, which is not much, and I would want to know more about her but have to settle for scraps.
Q1: How different would the tale have been if Eowyn hadn't really been present until popping up as Aragorn's bride much later?
I'd also say that as I read LOTR end-to-end, multiple themes leap off the pages at me, and among the multitude are three that are heavily reinforced by the Eowyn/Merry experience:1. Underdogs can rise up and change the course of history (Go, underdogs!)2. The best things in life are accomplished through teamwork (Eowyn/Merry, the Fellowship, Frodo & Sam in Mordor, etc)3. Good things in life can come from unexpected, overlooked places/people (this is also a staple of fairy stories, I guess: how often do magic fairies pop up and save heroes?)
So we'd still have an epic Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and Tolkien would have found another way to kill the Witch-king and save Minas Tirith. And maybe we would have liked the alternative as much or more than what we have. There's certainly no equivalent in the Battle of Helm's Deep, where Gamling's grandson and his playmate defeat the head of Saruman's army and turn the tide, and that battle is just as stirring. But I would argue that the Eowyn/Merry/Witch-king scene helps to humanize the Pelennor battle so that we don't get lost in all the mass troop movements and big-picture changes of fortune, so I feel lucky we got the story as published.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Apr 3 2023, 8:49pm
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Hey George when I read your comment: But I would argue that the Eowyn/Merry/Witch-king scene helps to humanize the Pelennor battle so that we don't get lost in all the mass troop movements and big-picture changes of fortune, so I feel lucky we got the story as published. it took me back to my earliest readings of LOTR when I was a pre-teen. I loved the books, but struggled with battles and strategies, and the Eowyn and Merry partnership gave me a reference/relief point. Later on I was able to better understand and appreciate the "big-picture"
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
(This post was edited by oliphaunt on Apr 3 2023, 8:50pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 3 2023, 9:05pm
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Q3: What would have been the effect of Éowyn dying on the Pelennor when it comes to later actions of Éomer, Aragorn, and the ultimate effect on Faramir's story?
It's worth comparing Eomer's grief over Theoden ("this is sad, but this happens in battle, so shoulder it") with his assumption that Eowyn has died in battle ("I'm going to throw away reason and be led by fury and grief, which nearly led to death by encirclement"). So if Eowyn really had died, would he have been withdrawn and shrouded in dark thoughts when they went to the Black Gate? I think the fact that he wasn't made for a better story. There needed to be some contrast between the hopeful, virtuous guys and Sauron's dark, gloomy bad guys.
But I would hazard to guess that Aragorn would have basically shrugged off her death. Faramir seemed destined to heal on his own in the story as is, and he would have found love elsewhere.
What effect would it have had on Gandalf? He seems fond of and familiar with Eowyn, and I think it would have been another notch in his long list of personal griefs. Gandalf's compassion for others is easily disguised by his gruffness and his big-picture strategy talk, but I think we see "the sentimental Gandalf" at Moria when the Watcher in the Water destroys the gates after nearly killing them all.
'I am sorry; for the trees were beautiful, and had stood so long.’
What effect would it have on Merry? I think his experience with Eowyn was a watershed moment in his life, and though we never hear about their bond afterwards beyond Eowyn gifting him the Horn of Rohan, it's hard to imagine them *not* having a bond of some kind, having faced the supernatural evil and terror of the Witch-king together and being co-survivors. i would speculate that with both of them surviving, it helped the other recover from the Black Breath.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 3 2023, 9:09pm
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I was about 13 when I first read LOTR also, so my experience was similar to yours. I loved the description of the various opposing forces clashing and moving and gaining/losing battle momentum, but I was more personally rooted in Merry's overwhelming fear, and then the way he overcame that fear with Eowyn's inspiration, enabling that stab from behind. Which wasn't heroic as heroic tales go, but it was the best he could do, and I've always respected doing your best vs doing the perfect thing. It got the results we wanted, anyway.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 3 2023, 9:39pm
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Q4: We live in a world where we're closing in (though have not yet achieved) on equality of gender and race - should we read LOTR from the modern sensibility, or consider that when LOTR was published women had only had the vote in the UK for a couple of decades, that women had only been awarded degrees at his university since 1920, and that women's roles in war (for LOTR is after all a kind of war story) remained mostly on the home front? I'd argue that in many ways Éowyn and the other women who feature are remarkable in this light, and particularly Éowyn. She goes to battle and is heroic at a time when it was unthinkable for a woman to do such a thing.
Q5: And related - how important is it that modern fantasy authors make an effort at representation and diversity in their writing? Can you think of any notable female characters Éowyn might have inspired over the years?
Everyone has to make their own decision on this point, don't they? And I see opinions all over the place. For me, it's a matter of 1) loving history + 2) pragmatism, meaning I love reading things from the past, and I also can't change them, nor would I support efforts to re-write them, so I have to accept them as they are, warts and all, or I'd stop enjoying them. Also, I think reading about the past makes you appreciate the present even more. I do support introductions/commentary saying things like, "Author/historian X was brilliant in most of their observations, until it came to beating up your wife and keeping war captives as slaves." I have no problem calling that out as unacceptable.
That's historical vs modern works. I expect equality and inclusivity in modern works and don't respect the creator if they ignore it. But I was heavily influenced by Dr Seuss when I was little, and I didn't see the difference between people with stars on their bellies and those without, especially when you could get them removed and added.
Eowyn-specific: given that Tolkien had a mostly male audience for many decades, it's worth noting that fan-talk was mostly about battles and heroes like Aragorn and Boromir, but I don't remember it to be a common complaint that "I love LOTR, but I hate that uppity woman from Rohan."
I wonder about Tolkien's own uncharted inner context, and I was googling "women warriors in Norse sagas" since he admired the Norse as much or more than the Greeks (who had strong women like Athena and Artemis, though they were virgins, which says something). Turns out there were real Viking warrior women *and* commanders in addition to strong female gods, and the Rohirrim were so heavily modeled on the Norse that I think it all made internal sense to Tolkien. (I'm sure there are Norse scholars that are mysogynistic, so everyone's mileage may vary.)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 3 2023, 9:56pm
Post #24 of 39
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Kidding!
Q8: Is Éowyn the most significant, or 'best' female character in all Tolkien's writings?I've learned that fandoms love fighting over "best" and "most" since "there can only be one," so I will shamelessly take the cowardly, pacifist approach and say she's "one of the best" and "one of the most." Or to try another tack: she's the best and most, unless someone convinces me otherwise, and I'm open to arguments that don't get personal/ad hominem.
For me, she's the most complex, and I don't think he wrote her just to prove that he could write a complex woman, but because of the interplay of character, plot, and theme that turned her into the person we know. He needed someone to kill the Witch-king, and he settled on her. And he liked women fighters, as I remarked to Wiz, so I think within the realm of Tolkien's creativity, an Eowyn-type of person existed, and it was satisfying as an author to write about her once he realized she would be a key player and not an Ioreth or "wife of Dorlas."
And since you said "LOTR," I'm guessing you're trying to set that as the scope of replies, which I'll (mostly) respect if I can squeeze in honorable mention of Melian (strongest, smartest ruler of Beleriand), Luthien (like Fingolfin, she challenged Morgoth's power; unlike him, she won; no disrespect to Fing, who's still my hero), and Haleth, whom I'll cover in another post.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 3 2023, 10:14pm
Post #25 of 39
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Tolkien and strong women: Haleth, if you haven't read The Silmarilion
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Not everyone has read The Sil, so for those who haven't, I thought I'd share some quotes about Haleth, a strong woman who feels larger than life in the way Tolkien wrote about her, back when Men were new in the world and had just discovered and been discovered by Elves. Her people were more rustic than others and more decentralized, so they would never have built an empire like Gondor in its height, but Tolkien showed respect to their choices and never made me feel they were inferior for having a female leader. I bring her up because she's in more of an inspired leadership role than a fighting role like Eowyn's, and also because she's a human rather than an Elf, so she has no powers like Galadriel.
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Haldad had twin children: Haleth his daughter, and Haldar his son; and both were valiant in the defence, for Haleth was a woman of great heart and strength.
Then Haleth held the people together, though they were without hope; and some cast themselves in the rivers and were drowned.
But Haleth was proud, and unwilling to be guided or ruled, and most of the Haladin were of like mood...they took Haleth for their chief; and she led them at last to Estolad,
Soon however Haleth desired to move westward again; and though most of her people were against this counsel, she led them forth once more;
But there were many who loved the Lady Haleth and wished to go whither she would, and dwell under her rule; and these she led into the Forest of Brethil,
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