|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 21 2023, 10:33pm
Post #1 of 24
(9391 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Eowyn, Faramir, and Restoring the Soul
|
Can't Post
|
|
"Aragorn and Gandalf went now to the Warden of the Houses of Healing, and they counselled him that Faramir and Éowyn should remain there and still be tended with care for many days."
And
“But to what she will awake: hope, or forgetfulness, or despair, I do not know. And if to despair, then she will die, unless other healing comes which I cannot bring.”
It seems to me that Tolkien maybe ahead of his time in considering emotional factors as equally crucial and equally legitimate as physical illness and injury. I remember reading that Tolkien’s son Michael returned home "much damaged" and shellshocked after fighting in World War II, and that he wasn't speaking of physical damage. It's easy to see why that might have factored in to Frodo's condition after his quest, but I very much wonder if it's also reflected here.
Q. 1 Is Eowyn’s condition a form of PTSD, or similar symptoms that soldiers suffer from after returning home?
Aragorn’s predictions
“But to what she will awake: hope, or forgetfulness, or despair, I do not know. And if to despair, then she will die, unless other healing comes which I cannot bring.”
And
“’The Lady Éowyn,' said Aragorn, 'will wish soon to rise and depart; but she should not be permitted to do so, if you can in any way restrain her, until at least ten days be passed.’”
Eowyn’s words, 2 days after the captains and soldiers had departed for Mordor.
Eowyn to the Warden: “ 'Sir,' she said, 'I am in great unrest, and I cannot lie longer in sloth.' “
And
“I am healed,' she said, 'healed at least in body, save my left arm only, and that is at ease. But I shall sicken anew, if there is naught that I can do. Are there no tidings of war? The women can tell me nothing.' “
Then to Faramir: “'But I do not desire healing,' she said. 'I wish to ride to war like my brother Éomer, or better like Théoden the king, for he died and has both honour and peace.’”
Q. 2 How did Aragorn know that’s what she would do? Was it because he can imagine feeling the same in her place? Or was it his Numenorian thought-reading abilities?
Even though Theoden had shaken off despair, had died honorably, she herself had defeated the Nazgul with the help of Merry who she herself had deliberately brought along with her, and the honor of Rohan had been renewed through a tremendous victory, Eowyn was still in despair, and still seems here to feel that the only way to restore her own honor and to have peace was to die in battle.
Q. 3 Why do none of these accomplishments and other events start to turn the tide for her? It seems somehow unlikely that Aragorn turning her down is the only factor in this, especially since she been feeling trapped in despair for years before she had even met him.
Eowyn, with her undiminished determination and resolve pumps the Warden until he is able to give her a name that might give her what she desperately wants.
“’But the Lord Faramir is by right the Steward of the City.' 'Where can I find him?' 'In this house, Lady. He was sorely hurt, but is now set again on the way to health. But I do not know---' 'Will you not bring me to him? "Then you will know.'"
I love how Eowyn is continually delivering pointed and pithy statements like this one. Another of my favorites, if I can call it that because it's tragic as well as true, is her answer to the Warden’s somewhat oblique allusions seeming to blame the leaders of Gondor for the damage of war. "'It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two, Master Warden,' answered Éowyn. 'And those who have not swords can still die upon them.’”
Q. 4 What are some other statements she makes that are similar in their brevity and clarity, and impact?
Eowyn gets her wish, is introduced to Faramir, and wastes no time in attempting to get permission to leave the Houses of Healing. She is fair-minded enough to make sure the Warden isn't suspected of any dereliction of duty, but doesn't couch her request— almost a demand —with any polite terminology, but just states baldly, and very personally, what she has in mind.
"'Do not misunderstand him, lord,' said Éowyn. 'It is not lack of care that grieves me. No houses could be fairer, for those who desire to be healed. But I cannot lie in sloth, idle, caged. I looked for death in battle. But I have not died, and battle still goes on.'"
Q. 5 Is her direct and non-deferential approach to Faramir because of her single-minded desperation, or is it because she feels she is a higher rank than he, being of Rohan’s Royal family?
Oddly enough, Faramir seems to have an immediate effect on her, unlike anyone else has, including her brother and Aragorn. “Being a man whom pity deeply stirred, it seemed to him that her loveliness amid her grief would pierce his heart. And she looked at him and saw the grave tenderness in his eyes, and yet knew, for she was bred among men of war, that here was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle. 'What do you wish?' he said again. 'If it lies in my power, I will do it.' 'I would have you command this Warden, and bid him let me go,' she said; but though her words were still proud, her heart faltered, and for the first time she doubted herself. She guessed that this tall man, both stern and gentle, might think her merely wayward, like a child that has not the firmness of mind to go on with a dull task to the end." [emphasis mine]
Q. 6 Why would she suddenly doubt herself at this point? Is it something either in Faramir himself, or is it like some sort of chemical reaction where the factors are just right for a different and unexpected substance (or here, an attitude) to appear? Or both?
I'll risk a longer quote here: "She did not answer, but as he looked at her it seemed to him that something in her softened, as though a bitter frost were yielding at the first faint presage of Spring. A tear sprang in her eye and fell down her cheek, like a glistening rain-drop. Her proud head drooped a little. Then quietly, more as if speaking to herself than to him: 'But the healers would have me lie abed seven days yet,' she said. 'And my window does not look eastward.' Her voice was now that of a maiden young and sad.
Faramir smiled, though his heart was filled with pity. 'Your window does not look eastward?' he said. 'That can be amended. In this I will command the Warden. If you will stay in this house in our care, lady, and take your rest, then you shall walk in this garden in the sun, as you will; and you shall look east, whither all our hopes have gone. And here you will find me, walking and waiting, and also looking east. It would ease my care, if you would speak to me, or walk at whiles with me.'
Then she raised her head and looked at him in the eyes again; and a colour came in her pale face. 'How should I ease your care, my lord?' she said. 'And I do not desire the speech of living men.'
'Would you have my plain answer?' he said.
'I would.'
'Then, Éowyn of Rohan, I say to you that you are beautiful. In the valleys of our hills there are flowers fair and bright, and maidens fairer still; but neither flower nor lady have I seen till now in Gondor so lovely, and so sorrowful. It may be that only a few days are left ere darkness falls upon our world, and when it comes I hope to face it steadily; but it would ease my heart, if while the Sun yet shines, I could see you still. For you and I have both passed under the wings of the Shadow, and the same hand drew us back.'
'Alas, not me, lord!' she said. 'Shadow lies on me still. Look not to me for healing! I am a shieldmaiden and my hand is ungentle. But I thank you for this at least, that I need not keep to my chamber. I will walk abroad by the grace of the Steward of the City.'"
It looks to me like Tolkien is continuing his metaphor about Eowyn being like frozen spring flower, that is now beginning to thaw. She was originally described as being dressed in white, she is described as being pale, which I feel isn't just a reflection of her illness, but in keeping with her being almost like a figure made of snow or ice, cold and remote like a distant Valkyrie. Not only is the hardness softening, but for the first time “colour” is used to describe her.
Q. 7 What do you think about this season-of -spring metaphor? Is it evocative and effective, or do find it doesn't really work?
In Rohan, the description of Eowyn used language about a cold and early spring before anything was flowering, which would mean before much color would appear. Is Tolkien trying to convey that spring is starting to move into the next phase where some bloom and warmth is starting to take place?
However, she pulls back rather quickly: "'Alas, not me, lord!' she said. 'Shadow lies on me still. Look not to me for healing! I am a shieldmaiden and my hand is ungentle. But I thank you for this at least, that I need not keep to my chamber. I will walk abroad by the grace of the Steward of the City.' And she did him a courtesy and walked back to the house."
As we know, after this is one of the love stories in the Tolkien legendarium takes place, although I expect probably the briefest.
Q. 8 Is falling in love with Faramir part of or even pivotal to her healing, is it the other way around, are they simply inextricable? Do they help to heal each other in the process?
Q. 9 What is it about Faramir that makes her willing to not only let her guard down, to not only thaw completely, but to find a new purpose and a new mission which is literally focused on giving life rather than seeking death? “‘I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren.’"
Or was all that in their ready and waiting, but needed an actual victory of the West over Sauron before she could get to that point?
Faramir: "'But think not ill of me, if I say to you: they have brought me both a joy and a pain that I never thought to know. Joy to see you; but pain, because now the fear and doubt of this evil time are grown dark indeed. Éowyn, I would not have this world end now, or lose so soon what I have found.'
'Lose what you have found, lord?' she answered; but she looked at him gravely and her eyes were kind. 'I know not what in these days you have found that you could lose. But come, my friend, let us not speak of it! Let us not speak at all! I stand upon some dreadful brink, and it is utterly dark in the abyss before my feet, but whether there is any light behind me I cannot tell. For I cannot turn yet. I wait for some stroke of doom.'
'Yes, we wait for the stroke of doom,' said Faramir."
Also, here in the middle of this, we have another of her pithy statements. This one always made me smile: “ 'Lose what you have found, lord?' she answered; but she looked at him gravely and her eyes were kind. 'I know not what in these days you have found that you could lose.’” I had a friend who, although he loved the Lord of the Rings, always maintained that the characters were simply archetypes. This is one of the reasons I disagree, at least with the “simply.” I think Tolkien creates clearly defined characters of flesh and blood and distinct emotions, whether or not they are also serving as archetypes.
It’s clear that at this stage she still longs for Aragorn, and perhaps Faramir gives us the answer to the question of why she is still at least somewhat still in despair when he says: “'You desired to have the love of the Lord Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant, and you wished to have renown and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable. For so he is, a lord among men, the greatest that now is. But when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to have nothing, unless a brave death in battle.’”
But the tide turns almost on a dime here, when she realizes she loves Faramir in return.
Q. 10 Is this set up well, or does it seem too rushed?
Food for thought: I ran across this blog which references something Tolkien wrote about this. What do you think of his explanation here? Scroll down the page quite a way. It's the last three paragraphs after the long quote: https://excerpts-from-tolkien.tumblr.com/...another-she-answered
And in the end, we read this: “Then Éowyn looked in the eyes of Aragorn, and she said: ‘Wish me joy, my liege-lord and healer!’
And he answered: ‘I have wished thee joy ever since first I saw thee. It heals my heart to see thee now in bliss.’"
Q 11. I find this very moving. What do you think of her transformation? What do you think of Aragorn's statement?
Last question: It's quite a story arc within the story arc within several more story arcs, really. What was your reaction when you first read Eowyn's story of healing and of her eventually releasing Aragorn and choosing Faramir? Did you have different reactions at different times of your life, especially if you first read the books as a child or teenager?
And next week, our final Eowyn Post by Eledhwen!
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Mar 21 2023, 10:43pm)
|
|
|
SirDennisC
Half-elven
Mar 23 2023, 4:22am
Post #2 of 24
(9290 views)
Shortcut
|
|
How *do* you solve a problem like Maria?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The Eowen threads are deep, too deep for me to do justice, for my mind is oft distracted by the romance of her arc. She is complex. But there seems always more than a hint of the (old-fashioned) idea that what she really needed was to find a man and get married. The problem of course—is this too obvious?—there weren’t enough eligible (I.e., of equal station) written into the story, until Faramir (Aragorn being spoken for) …
…
|
|
|
uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Mar 23 2023, 4:06pm
Post #3 of 24
(9254 views)
Shortcut
|
[replyQ. 3 Why do none of these accomplishments and other events start to turn the tide for her? It seems somehow unlikely that Aragorn turning her down is the only factor in this, especially since she been feeling trapped in despair for years before she had even met him.
If indeed she is chiefly longing for glory and accomplishment, any satisfaction she has in her epic deed on the Pelennor—the single greatest stroke in all that conflict—may be a bit soured by her failure to reap the recognition that ought to be her due at this point. Look at the reactions of all the men around her. Yes, they do begin to describe her as valiant now, but that seems faint praise here, almost grudging. Gandalf, for one, first sighs in regret that she was out there instead of him, as he seems to have seen the Witch-King as his own special duty to handle. To be fair, Gandalf is also not exactly a living man. Help me out, does Aragorn show a similar sentiment, that it would have been better if he'd been there to undertake the fight? Éomer laments that she's here at all, standing at the very scene of her victory, as if he hadn't been carried far across the field with all his men by the mere arrival of the foe, when Éowyn alone could master her horse.
And then she meets Faramir, and they slip right into their normative roles, she a supplicant, he magnanimous, and never once does he offer any recognition for the slaying of the general in charge of the entire invading force, the same one who's been kicking his butt all year.
It's realistic enough. But is it authorial intent or authorial oversight?
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 23 2023, 7:20pm
Post #4 of 24
(9247 views)
Shortcut
|
I think that's a good point.
I can read this section and feel that Tolkien is being pulled one way by the position of it in the story, and another by the logic of th character he has made (at least in my reading of her).
As regards the position on the story, we seem to be tidying up loose ends and announcing the marriages and promotions. Two loose ends are Eowyn and Faramir, and maybe Tolkien is in a bit of a rush to get them knotted up.
As regards the way I read Eowyn,the logic of her character seems to put her a long way from the conventional wedding bells and happily-ever-after ending that the position in the story would suggest.
I don't think Tolkien resoves this tension with total success. I think there are some lovely bits of this very short romance section, but it seems a bit unsatisfying still.
Now of course there is no problem for someone who might say "Eowyn's proud, death-seeking warrior side was part of her affliction or pathology, and her healing would naturally lead her back to more normal and healthy feminine outlooks behaviours". I don't, as it happens, like to see it that way. But if you were to ask me to find the bit in the text that shows this idea to be wrong, I don't think I could find one. So I think it is a perfectly reasonable interpretation: perhaps, for all I know, what Tolkien intended.
The problem with it (for me) is precisely the one Uncle iorlas has just mentioned - it hinges on characters (or their author) deciding that it's a bit embaressing to mention the single most spectacular feat of heroism in arms in the War of the Ring because "Shh! she wasn't in her right mind."
(I'm pinning the single most spectacular feat of heroism in arms in the War of the Ring medal on Eowyn's chest, but I do recall that in previous discussions of the death of the Witch King there were differences of opinion about whodunnit. The damage of a knee wound inflicted on an undead knee by a magical weapon is just uncalculable but appeals to reality, and (typically) Tolkien does not provide details of meachnisms and dmange points. So the text seems to support either the argument that the Witch King is a gonner immediately when stabbed by perhaps-not-a-man Merry; that the barrowblade does some counter-spell thingy that lets Eowyn's blow be fatal; or that not-a-man Eowyn's blow would have been fatal to the WK anyway but is only possible because Merry's prevented the WK knocking Eowyn's brains out before she could strike.)
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
|
|
|
oliphaunt
Lorien
Mar 23 2023, 10:47pm
Post #5 of 24
(9239 views)
Shortcut
|
Q. 1 Is Eowyn’s condition a form of PTSD, or similar symptoms that soldiers suffer from after returning home?
Yes, but. Eowyn's emotional and spiritual problems began back in Edoras. I do agree her sickness and Merry's look like battle fatigue, especially the nightmares. Surely between WWI and II, Tolkien saw many who suffered.
Merry recovers quickly - is it just his hobbity endurance? I think Eowyn has a more complex illness. As does Faramir. Aragorn recommends that Eowyn remain in the Houses. Gandalf recommends the same for Faramir, and counsels the healers to keep him unaware of Denethor's madness "until he is healed and has duties to do."
I'm inclined to look at Eowyn and Faramir's healing at one time, rather than to ascribe Eowyn's healing to the presence of Faramir. Faramir says: "it would ease my heart, if while the Sun yet shines, I could see you still. For you and I have both passed under the wings of the Shadow, and the same hand drew us back." Faramir is admitting that he also has an illness of the heart.
So what is it that both Eowyn and Faramir need to heal?
When Eowyn has her epiphany, she says "I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren...No longer do I desire to be a queen." This reminds me very much of Galadriel when she faces and rejects the temptation of the Ring when Frodo offers it.
Aragorn gives Ithilien to Faramir. Which is exactly what Faramir wanted, to "dwell in fair Ithilien and there make a garden. All things will grow with joy there, if the White Lady comes."
Both Eowyn and Faramir are turning to growing, to gardening. Their personal healing is combined with the healing of Middle Earth.
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
|
|
|
oliphaunt
Lorien
Mar 23 2023, 10:59pm
Post #6 of 24
(9238 views)
Shortcut
|
Both Eowyn and Denethor felt despair.
Eowyn channels her despair into energy to fight and kills the Black Rider. She desired death but wasn't truly suicidal. She did have hope, even if only the hope of "great deeds".
Denethor's despair drives him mad, and he nearly kills Faramir along with himself. He gave up on hope and turned away from action. Presumably any positive action, even in the face of impossible odds, still has value. Like say, the odds that a couple of hobbits can get the One Ring into Mt. Doom...
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 24 2023, 3:17am
Post #7 of 24
(9223 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Could be. It's hard to say without
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
more info. on what Tolkien thought in general about that. Are there indications in his letters? I've read through most of them, but I'd have to look again to see what's there on the subject.
Of course, it seems like that's just what Aragorn and Faramir needed too . . .
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 24 2023, 7:45pm
Post #8 of 24
(9182 views)
Shortcut
|
Re-reading the Eowyn/Faramir dialogue section I was struck by this:
“‘But I do not desire healing,’ she said. ‘I wish to ride to war like my brother Éomer, or better like Théoden the king, for he died and has both honour and peace.’” I thought I'd try taking Eowyn literally about this - she wants 'honour and peace" and the best way to get them would be to die gloriously.
Earlier we've discussed an irony about Eowyn wishing for honour - maybe Hama speaks for the 'man in the street' of Rohan when he says "She is fearless and high-hearted. All love her." So she would appear to have already been honoured even at the start of the tale, before any fell-beast-head-hacky-offy or sword-stabby-shatter-sparkly exploits. But she doesn't seem either to realise or to value what she has.
That made me experiment with imagining Eowyn as someone who is viewing honour as something you have to collect by continually pleasing and impressing people. That would be a tough gig since she would have placed herhappiness in the hands of others - it depends on whether they honour her or not, but it doesn't seem they can honour her in a way she honours.
In the real world (to which is it dangerous to appeal...) many people desire and seek (for example) fame, money, attention, or power and status of various kinds long after you'd have thought that they ought not to have any real need of any more. So I suppose it's a sort of insecurity or other need that has to be continually slaked by further reassuring offerings: perhaps if life has left you without a suficient supply of self-worth you can carry with you to keep warm wherever you go.
If that's the case, it might explain why 'peace' eludes Eowyn: maybe there has been no way of feeling sufficiently honoured to shut the anxiety up?
If that's the nature of Eowyn's problem, I can imagine her dreaming of becoming so utterly honourable that she can step off the treadmill (marry a great king and captain! Kill a great foe!) But maybe the only realistic way of having unerodable honour is the way Theoden has.
Eomer has further opportunities for glory (and at least has something to do!) But he's not safe from ending in some ignominious way, where as Theoden is (and IIRC this is discussed at some point around his death ) 'safe' now.
Now of course this doesn't solve the mystery of why everyone is pitying her for being a sad beautiful lady with her arm in a sling, rather than celebrating her as the great knight of the age.
It might be a credible explanation for why she is not attracted to Faramir's pity, and seems to feel it's an obstacle to the affection she begins to feel for him. She probably is wise not to enter a relationship based on someone's pity, I think: is this all very co-dependent? what happens should she manage to become unpitiable? And it is Faramir explicitly renouncing his pity for her that seems to make the relationship a goer.
Not sure how well this idea works though - it has to be either that Faramir's opinion of her has become the only one that matters, or that she realises (but the text does not seem to say so) that this insatiable desire to be honoured is something she can abandon.
So I'm probably wrong, but I wondered whether I'm interestingly wrong.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Mar 24 2023, 7:47pm)
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 25 2023, 1:20am
Post #9 of 24
(9170 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I think this is really good. I hadn't
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
linked the healing of Middle Earth together with Eowyn's and Faramir's desire to focus on gardening and healing. And right there at the top of that list I think should be Sam with his gift from Galadriel, and all his efforts to renew the Shire. And yes, Eowyn's difficulties certainly predated Pelennor. There are other kinds of trauma that leaves one more susceptible to later instances like PTSD from battle.
I had never thought of this: "This reminds me very much of Galadriel when she faces and rejects the temptation of the Ring when Frodo offers it." I don't know if it's so much a direct correlation as it is thematic; but it certainly is striking.
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 25 2023, 1:37am
Post #10 of 24
(9167 views)
Shortcut
|
I actually think Aragorn is an outlier; and I would think he certainly wouldn't expect to have slain the Nazgul himself, since he knew the prophecy. And I think his praise for Eowyn is genuine.
I think some of what is going on is shock that Eowyn was there at all and grief that someone that everyone expected was in the somewhat safer position was actually right in the midst of the battle targeting the most dangerous character present; and that she even at present, it was touch and go to whether she would survive. I think they felt it was a terrible waste of a life that should've been preserved. But that also meant they were thinking all that clearly, because if they put everything together, Eowyn and Merry being in the prophecy's not-living-men category, plus the blade of Westernesse, and the thread of "fate" running all through the story, it should be obvious that Eowyn was very much "meant" to accomplish the Nazgul-slaying.
Eomer, I think, is simply carried away by his grief and shock for the sister that he loved.
But along with all that, it does seem like most of them are a bit underwhelmed by her accomplishment, which is kind of baffling.
Authorial intent or oversight—I actually have no idea at all!
|
|
|
uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Mar 25 2023, 6:58pm
Post #11 of 24
(9114 views)
Shortcut
|
Aragorn gives Ithilien to Faramir. Which is exactly what Faramir wanted, to "dwell in fair Ithilien and there make a garden. All things will grow with joy there, if the White Lady comes." There was some discussion, in an earlier thread, about the significance of Éowyn's white dress in Meduseld, so it occurred to me this might give us a little perspective. Éowyn is certainly a white lady, she does indeed want to talk to the manager, but one gathers that the general populace in Minas Tirith is pretty white overall, so that alone shouldn't earn her this sobriquet from Faramir. Is she still wearing white preferentially? Is she just so flaxen pale that even white people looking at her think, wow, she is white like paper? Or does "white" carry a sense of "sent by the powers of light" as it does for the White Rider, in contrast to the Black Riders who style themselves in black clothes but are ghastly pale themselves to the few who can see them? (Or at least five of them are; I would be less sure that Khamûl appears pale even now, and who knows but that one of the original recipients of the Nine Rings might have been some king of Far Harad? But anyway.)
|
|
|
uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Mar 25 2023, 7:24pm
Post #12 of 24
(9111 views)
Shortcut
|
(I'm pinning the single most spectacular feat of heroism in arms in the War of the Ring medal on Eowyn's chest, but I do recall that in previous discussions of the death of the Witch King there were differences of opinion about whodunnit. The damage of a knee wound inflicted on an undead knee by a magical weapon is just uncalculable but appeals to reality, and (typically) Tolkien does not provide details of meachnisms and dmange points. So the text seems to support either the argument that the Witch King is a gonner immediately when stabbed by perhaps-not-a-man Merry; that the barrowblade does some counter-spell thingy that lets Eowyn's blow be fatal; or that not-a-man Eowyn's blow would have been fatal to the WK anyway but is only possible because Merry's prevented the WK knocking Eowyn's brains out before she could strike.)
I'd add this note to one of those older threads if I knew where it lay, but quickly—Aragorn tells us "all blades perish that pierce that dread king." (Or some similar words.) But how can this be known by him or anyone, unless once in a while during the agelong history of Angmar's war with the northern Númenoreans, somebody scored a hit against him? I don't think Merry can have been the first soldier to stick a pin in the Witch-King; a little like the Hydra's heads, losing any weapon that's hit him one time is just part of the price you have to pay to defeat him. One could pack a bushel of single-use blades of Westernesse, like Gilgamesh with a boatful of oars, but then again you'll probably quickly lose the use of your icy cold sword-arm, too. At any rate, I don't think there's any need to suppose the Lord of the Nazgûl was going to keel over dead from his knee puncture alone, however troublesome it may have been.
Now, there is that interesting passage saying that only such a blade as Merry carried could have penetrated the "spell that knit the mighty sinews" or some such, which does seem to imply that Éowyn's sword might never have availed by itself, no matter how perfectly she applied it. I suppose in my mind, that's always worked out to a hazy notion that Merry's successful attack sort of temporarily lowered the Witch-King's sorcerous defenses, compromised his shield generator as it were, laying him momentarily open to any old blade that happened by, right at the moment Éowyn was winding up to go for broke.
In any event, while it's true she may never landed her vorpal stroke without Merry's interference, it is equally true that Merry would have been badly in the soup if she hadn't beheaded the evil steed and made her stand; she may have been knight enough to face the Witch-King toe to toe for a moment, but Meriadoc of Buckland, valiant though he be, was probably only fit to sneak in a shot from behind, even if he'd been granted a standing start,
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 25 2023, 8:33pm
Post #13 of 24
(9106 views)
Shortcut
|
almost exactly like this, as far as Merry's part and Eowyn's part.
And I also think this may be another instance or Tolkien Ambiguity (the better to beguile us my dear, said the Big Bad Wolf . . . ).
That's interesting about the history of such blades. I wonder if the dissolving blades applied to all Nazgul, not just the Witch-King.
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Mar 25 2023, 8:42pm)
|
|
|
Silvered-glass
Lorien
Mar 25 2023, 10:07pm
Post #14 of 24
(9097 views)
Shortcut
|
Q. 1 Is Eowyn’s condition a form of PTSD, or similar symptoms that soldiers suffer from after returning home?
I think it's because of Aragorn and what he did and didn't do. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields would have been traumatic too, but not the real issue.
Q. 2 How did Aragorn know that’s what she would do? Was it because he can imagine feeling the same in her place? Or was it his Numenorian thought-reading abilities?
I think he had seen enough of her character to know that she was prone to drastic actions.
Q. 5 Is her direct and non-deferential approach to Faramir because of her single-minded desperation, or is it because she feels she is a higher rank than he, being of Rohan’s Royal family?
I think she sees him as a social equal.
Q. 3 Why do none of these accomplishments and other events start to turn the tide for her? It seems somehow unlikely that Aragorn turning her down is the only factor in this, especially since she been feeling trapped in despair for years before she had even met him.
She went looking for death, not glory, but she found glory, not death. This doesn't please her because she wasn't after glory in the first place and didn't need to prove herself.
Q. 6 Why would she suddenly doubt herself at this point? Is it something either in Faramir himself, or is it like some sort of chemical reaction where the factors are just right for a different and unexpected substance (or here, an attitude) to appear? Or both?
It's called being on a rebound. Faramir was in the right place at the right time saying the right words. Éowyn is healing and putting Aragorn from her mind by getting involved with Faramir, who seems to be a much better choice for her.
Q. 8 Is falling in love with Faramir part of or even pivotal to her healing, is it the other way around, are they simply inextricable? Do they help to heal each other in the process?
I think having Faramir as her anchor is an important component of her healing. She might have survived otherwise, but it would have been hard for her to thrive if she was all alone.
Faramir at this point hasn't even started to process his grief. Éowyn's presence would be expected to help him in the coming days.
Q. 9 What is it about Faramir that makes her willing to not only let her guard down, to not only thaw completely, but to find a new purpose and a new mission which is literally focused on giving life rather than seeking death? “‘I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren.’"
I think becoming a healer is not because of Faramir but entirely her own idea. She has experienced battle and decided she didn't like it. She wants to turn away from her self-destructive course.
I think thaw is her natural state and she was never deep-frozen, merely overcome with grief and shock.
Q. 10 Is this set up well, or does it seem too rushed?
I think it works well because the situation is conductive for quick development. I don't like romance novels myself, so It's nice to get to the point quickly without boring the reader, but Tolkien also isn't being too quick to the point of implausibility.
I wonder though how well Faramir and Éowyn will really get along as the years pass. Their romance was a bit too rushed from that perspective. I remember a Hollywood action movie, I think it was Speed, where the hero and the heroine get together in the end and all seems fine until the sequel where it turns out that the romance didn't last and a new series of action sequences is required to rekindle the flame and bring the lovebirds back together.
Denethor was very much in love with Finduilas and did not remarry after her death, so maybe that's a good sign for the stability of Faramir's affections. This scene has a reference to the Denethor/Finduilas romance with Faramir putting giving Éowyn his mother's mantle. The design of the mantle is also a reference to Lúthien, though Faramir presumably wasn't thinking about that. Éowyn is unlike Lúthien in many ways, though they also share some similarities as heroines who fell in love with an outsider, left home by stealth, overcame a terrible enemy, and ended up brought back to life.
But now that I think of it, does the mantle here symbolize Faramir seeking a replacement mother in his love interest? That isn't very healthy, but at the same time it explains a lot about Faramir's character and his desire to be liked. (The problem with these character discussions is that sometimes crucial insights are hidden somewhere more related to another character.)
Last question: It's quite a story arc within the story arc within several more story arcs, really. What was your reaction when you first read Eowyn's story of healing and of her eventually releasing Aragorn and choosing Faramir? Did you have different reactions at different times of your life, especially if you first read the books as a child or teenager?
Back when I was a child I thought Éowyn randomly choosing to be a healer instead of a warrior was a bit of a downer because being a warrior is much cooler and she was good at being a warrior.
|
|
|
Silvered-glass
Lorien
Mar 25 2023, 10:22pm
Post #15 of 24
(9093 views)
Shortcut
|
Aragorn tells us "all blades perish that pierce that dread king." (Or some similar words.) But how can this be known by him or anyone, unless once in a while during the agelong history of Angmar's war with the northern Númenoreans, somebody scored a hit against him?
The blade shattering seems to have been a general property of that class of undead being. I'm not only talking about the Nazgûl, but also Barrow-wights. (When Frodo severs the Barrow-wight's arm, the blade shatters.) There may also have been other wraith types.
From the lore perspective it's an interesting detail to think that Barrow-wights are basically the same as or similar to the Nazgûl, only presumably weaker and sent to exist in barrows rather doing errands for Sauron.
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 26 2023, 2:56am
Post #16 of 24
(9080 views)
Shortcut
|
|
That's a really interesting take.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
"That made me experiment with imagining Eowyn as someone who is viewing honour as something you have to collect by continually pleasing and impressing people. That would be a tough gig since she would have placed her happiness in the hands of others - it depends on whether they honour her or not, but it doesn't seem they can honour her in a way she honours."
In a way that fits in was the impression I remember getting in my early readings, and somehow I lost track of more recently. That impression was that Eowyn was so deeply affected by Theoden's and Rohan's decline, And that Even when things turned around, it didn't seem enough to her to truly restore the honor and maybe even the nature of the country she loved. After all, if it was that "easy," in a sense for things to go down hill that badly, how much intrinsic worth and honor could there be in the house of Eorl if such things could happen. I almost wonder in away she felt that some of it was her fault, that she couldn't help or get through to Theoden.
But after re-reading Gandalf's explanation to Eomer--which confirms the self-esteem issue, although not whether it dated only from Theoden's decline, or was life-long--I'm afraid I left out the spiritual (or maybe, possibly even a "dark" magic effect of) Saruman through Wormtongue. Like what can happen in an emotionally abusive relationship, or another situation where one is trapped with a "Gaslight-er," the victim takes in as truth those lies and accusations which are being spoken day after day, year after year relentlessly by a merciless manipulator. In a way, a bit of Stockholm syndrome, perhaps.
That's not so easily shaken even when the person is no longer in that situation. It gets internalized. But it's so persistent, that I really do wonder if there's some actual, if at a distance, Saruman-influence involved.
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 26 2023, 11:57am
Post #17 of 24
(9043 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I could find a brillig discussion about that discussion
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
In this 2014 discussion, some of is covered the prophetic angle in all this (that 'no man' can kill the WK). Understandably that got into the exacting mechanical details of how the prophecy is fulfilled, and that ends up getting into who kills the WK, and how come they can do that.
There was also meta-discussion of things people remembered from other fora (or flauna?), where there had been a lot of interest in who ought to get the 'credit' for the 'kill' (this reply might be a good place to pick up that tangent).
In my now-past-editable post I meant to say "The damage of a knee wound inflicted on an undead knee by a magical weapon is just uncalculable *by* appeals to reality" and that is a tribute to the "African or European swallow?" kind of arguments, unappealing to me, that these kinds of things can lead to.
Plus of course I think some of the fandom would be very much less interested in the exact (and must-be-significant) importance of Merry's 'contribution' if it had assisted Aragorn, Theoden, Eomer, or any other bloke in the story.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Mar 26 2023, 11:59am)
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 26 2023, 12:06pm
Post #18 of 24
(9041 views)
Shortcut
|
That's not so easily shaken even when the person is no longer in that situation. It gets internalized. But it's so persistent, that I really do wonder if there's some actual, if at a distance, Saruman-influence involved.
It made me think of this, from The Voice of Saruman:
“For many the sound of the voice alone was enough to hold them enthralled; but for those whom it conquered the spell endured when they were far away, and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them. But none were unmoved; none rejected its pleas and its commands without an effort of mind and will, so long as its master had control of it.”
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 26 2023, 1:27pm
Post #19 of 24
(9031 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"Eowyn, Eowyn, White Lady of Rohan..."
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
"Eowyn, Eowyn, White Lady of Rohan" is the start of one of Faramir's lines of course. And it is so strongly rhythmic that it makes me expect a second line. That's is an unfortunate effect for me, as I tend to make up doggerel second lines.
I think that "White" could have multiple and changing meanings. Tolkien has likened her to ice: white as in frozen. We've discussed whether it it a literal description of her appearance of favoured clothing colour (and whether that had meaning). I like the idea that it could mean (has turned out to mean?) "sent by the powers of light".
And doesn't Ithilien, where Eowyn and Faramir plan to set up house and garden, have a name to do with the pale, white Moon?
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
|
|
|
Silvered-glass
Lorien
Mar 26 2023, 9:19pm
Post #20 of 24
(9003 views)
Shortcut
|
But after re-reading Gandalf's explanation to Eomer--which confirms the self-esteem issue, although not whether it dated only from Theoden's decline, or was life-long--I'm afraid I left out the spiritual (or maybe, possibly even a "dark" magic effect of) Saruman through Wormtongue. Like what can happen in an emotionally abusive relationship, or another situation where one is trapped with a "Gaslight-er," the victim takes in as truth those lies and accusations which are being spoken day after day, year after year relentlessly by a merciless manipulator. In a way, a bit of Stockholm syndrome, perhaps.
That's not so easily shaken even when the person is no longer in that situation. It gets internalized. But it's so persistent, that I really do wonder if there's some actual, if at a distance, Saruman-influence involved.
Éowyn's portrayal in the earlier portions of the book shows that Éomer's judgement of the matter was the more accurate one. The internal evidence is thus more consistent with the view that Gandalf was gaslighting both Éomer and the reader at the same time to shift the blame for Éowyn's condition from Aragorn. Yes I think Tolkien is the kind of author who would have gone there.
By the way, I've been meaning to post a heavily revised version of my "Gandalf the White = Saruman" theory (with plentiful book quotations to show where I'm coming from, unlike the original which had almost none) but I need to finish it first and it's getting really long and is nowhere near complete.
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 27 2023, 1:25am
Post #21 of 24
(8987 views)
Shortcut
|
Thanks for the quote!
Saruman whispering through Wormtongue certainly poisoned Theoden. I don't mean he "possessed" Wormtongue; but I'm thinking the influence was there. I really do wonder if that's a big chunk of it, and why it was so hard for Eowyn to shake off--including the fact that it''s hard to shake off the influence of something that's really coming from the outside, when it feels like it's coming from your own insides. And eventually, of course it does become that, too.
|
|
|
elentari3018
Rohan
Apr 9 2023, 3:10am
Post #22 of 24
(8619 views)
Shortcut
|
|
What a perfect topic since i'm rereading this chapter and also so fascinated by Eowyn/Faramir healing dynamic
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
<i>Q. 1 Is Eowyn’s condition a form of PTSD, or similar symptoms that soldiers suffer from after returning home?
</i> I do think her suffering came before her ride out to Gondor for it started with her aiding her sick uncle Theoden.
<li> Q. 8 Is falling in love with Faramir part of or even pivotal to her healing, is it the other way around, are they simply inextricable? Do they help to heal each other in the process?
</i> I do think they heal each other and i found a letter from Tolkien that justifies this fast relationship because of the trauma that both faced from the war.
"Criticism of the speed of the relationship or 'love' of Faramir and Eowyn. In my experience feelings and decisions ripen very quickly (as measured by mere 'clock-time', which is actually not justly applicable) in periods of great stress, and especially under the expectation of imminent death. And I do not think that person of high estate and breeding need all the petty fencing and approaches in matters of 'love'. This tale does not deal with a period of 'Courtly Love' and its pretenses; but with a culture more primitive (less corrupt) and nobler." Letter 244
I think i linked what you had from the tumblr.
I do think that Tolkien may have simplified a little of how Eowyn fell in love because in the chapter i think it's clear about Faramir at least if you read between the lines of him needing to find something to fill his heart. Though Eowyn's change is more abrupt, i feel.
Great answers to the questions! I learned so much in here!
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
|
|
|
elentari3018
Rohan
Apr 9 2023, 3:42am
Post #23 of 24
(8616 views)
Shortcut
|
|
snow, ice, white equaling pure and innocent?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
t looks to me like Tolkien is continuing his metaphor about Eowyn being like frozen spring flower, that is now beginning to thaw. She was originally described as being dressed in white, she is described as being pale, which I feel isn't just a reflection of her illness, but in keeping with her being almost like a figure made of snow or ice, cold and remote like a distant Valkyrie. Not only is the hardness softening, but for the first time “colour” is used to describe her.
Q. 7 What do you think about this season-of -spring metaphor? Is it evocative and effective, or do find it doesn't really work?
In Rohan, the description of Eowyn used language about a cold and early spring before anything was flowering, which would mean before much color would appear. Is Tolkien trying to convey that spring is starting to move into the next phase where some bloom and warmth is starting to take place? I think this metaphor also speaks about her youth and her not yet blossoming into womanhood until probably marriage in the case of being traditional acceptance of when you become an adult. And also white usually means pure and Eowyn is definitely still pure and inexperienced with a lot of what life has to offer.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 9 2023, 4:47pm
Post #24 of 24
(8407 views)
Shortcut
|
In my experience feelings and decisions ripen very quickly (as measured by mere 'clock-time', which is actually not justly applicable) in periods of great stress, and especially under the expectation of imminent death. I think we can all relate to this given our life experiences. One time on an airplane we were hit with sudden, harsh turbulence, and the woman next to me, who hadn't spoken a word, grabbed my arm and leaned into me and held on for the duration. (No, we didn't kiss or get married.) But it's instinctive to seek comfort in an emergency, even a stranger.
Or more towards the love part: people in refugee tents really don't like being scrutinized by social psychologists, but all the same, I read a psychologist's article once, and they studied romance in times of duress and privation, such as tent cities after hurricanes and earthquakes. Same idea: people skip the weeks of flirtatious looks, speaking in double entendres, and chocolate/roses, and they leap right into romance & relationships. And these can fall apart later when life gets back to normal, but not always.
That scene of Faramir and Eowyn instinctively hugging when they feel like catastrophe is coming (when Sauron is destroyed) is believable to me, anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
