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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 24 2023, 8:48am
Post #1 of 20
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How to discuss Denethor?
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It's been suggested that we discuss Denethor after the discussion of Eowyn finishes.
We'd need to divide Denethor's story arc into a series of discussions lasting a week each.
How should this be done?
It would of course be helpful for people to volunteer to lead these discussions. But if we need to come up with teh programme first and volunteers later that wouldwork too.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Feb 27 2023, 6:44pm
Post #2 of 20
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spitballing in the throne room
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I don't know if the intention is to fill out a predetermined number of weeks, but my first thought would be to hew to chronology more or less. So perhaps:
1. Denethor from afar: the reader's knowledge of the Steward by repute, before the narrative reaches him in person. So this gives us Gandalf's fairly brief account of his interaction with Denethor when on a research mission, with an even briefer remark contrasting it with earlier days; Boromir's scant discussion of him in telling his own story at the Council; and Gandalf's cautionary remarks to Pippin en route to Minas Tirith. Maybe some other early bits. And I might toss in a look at Denethor's youth in the days of his rival Thorongil, and maybe even a quick historical sketch of the line of Mardil, partly just to pad out what could otherwise be a light introductory phase.
2. The master of the house: Denethor in command at the city, as we see him in dialogue with Pippin, Gandalf and Faramir, his self-perception as Sauron's central rival and antagonist, and his simultaneous grief over the loss of his son. Probably stretching up to the point of sending the exhausted Faramir back out to defend the Rammas.
3. The madman in the tower: Denethor in despair, as the assault on Minas Tirith commences and Faramir lies fallen, through to his death and the revelation of the Palantír.
4. And maybe one phase for his lingering influence—falling, as it chiefly does, on Faramir, Pippin, and Beregond, but also the general civic echo of his end and the violation of the traditions of Rath Dínen.
Or something like that. Denethor is a rich character but he's not around for all that many different phases.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Feb 28 2023, 1:57am
Post #3 of 20
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Denethor by repute, to start with.
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I really like that idea. Might work for some other character's too.
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uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Feb 28 2023, 2:50am
Post #4 of 20
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…who do we hear about in advance? Theoden. Saruman, prominently, and Gollum. Lobelia. Aragorn and Faramir, barely. Elrond. Goldberry! Maggot.
Not to be confused with the roster of characters we hear about and never do meet.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 28 2023, 4:36pm
Post #5 of 20
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"by repute" and "lingering influences"
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I think those would be good subjects to consider for any character - do a 'by repute' if we hear anything important about them before they 'appear' in the story.
Do 'lingering influences' if they are either discussed or have some other ongoing effect after they are no longer seen in the story.
But I think there should be a lot of flexibility - the plan should fit the character we are discussion, rather than characters having to be forced into a standard but unsuitable plan.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 28 2023, 4:46pm
Post #6 of 20
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Tha would be a great arrangement.
And I like the titles you gave the sections.
I wasn't imagining that characters should fit a predetermined number of weeks. Rather, I think the important thing is pacing - each week should provide a satisfying discusion. And ideally, we cover everything anyone wanted to - though of course anyone can just start a thread raising the point they feel was neglected.
A good thing about having the plan available for discussion in advance is that if someone does think somethin is missing, or can't think howthat discussion will last a week, they can say so.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Morthoron
Gondor
Mar 1 2023, 12:51am
Post #7 of 20
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Add in a section regarding the debilitating effects of using the Palantir, and the slow erosion of his mental state as he strove overlong against Sauron.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 1 2023, 2:22am
Post #8 of 20
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underestimate what that did to him. There's not a lot of description of what went on with Denethor and his Palantir, but I think there's a lot that could be inferred.
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uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Mar 1 2023, 7:54am
Post #9 of 20
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I'd be quite happy to try and lead one of these myself, or more than one if need be. With the caveat that I know a lot of other members around here are more conversant with the apocrypha and marginalia than I am, and my Gondorian history is very likely muddled.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 1 2023, 12:01pm
Post #10 of 20
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That ought certainly to come up...
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That ought certainly to come up as we work through Denethor's character arc, and of course the Leaders aren't supposed to cover everything - we need people to respond and expand where teh Leader didn't have time or space to say something important in the starter post.
The other case-study is obviously Saruman, who also seems to me to be a good candidate for this sort of approach. So there' we ought to take care not to pre-empt a discussion of him by focusing too much on these gentlemens' balls   .
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 1 2023, 1:12pm
Post #11 of 20
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"You're MOST welcome" and you make very, very important points
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I'm looking forward to your thoughts on Denethor already, uncle Iorlas.
I think it is a very, very (very, very, very, very) important point that we need people to contribute whilst not feeling they are the ultimate expert on the subject.
Let's join oliphaunt as being Middle-earth Inexperts.
(We could have badges, like in the Scouts...)
Otherwise, That way madness lies - everything would have to be done by the person who knows the most, and then the project would rapidly collapse because of too few participants. I'd certainly never be able to lead anything again, because I suspect someone always knows mor than I do. 
Also I cannot state enough the importance of seeing this as a collabrative (not competitive) venture. Leaders are welcome to go to town with their research and writing if they want (because how can we carry on if Leaders don't have fun too?) And everyone else should feel overjoyed, not overmastered.
But the Leader is not supposed to know, let alone present, everything.
So for example, I'm also not very conversant with the 'apocrypha and marginalia' and I recommend the approach of posting a Leader post that asks for support and contibutions in areas where others might know more. That usually gets a good response, and keeps the leaders' workload down so that we can have a viable pool of vounteers.
Or, someone can pick a week of discussion that plays to what you do mostly know, and let an 'apocrypha and marginalia' inexpert handle a week that is apocrypha and marginalia heavy.
I think a lot of the fun of leading a discussion is seeing how far you can get, and then discovering how much further things can be got when other forum members weave ther ideas into the Leader's own. That's how I feel about it, anyway.
As to factual mistakes -
We should expect anyone offering a correction to do so politely, and possibly ignore it althogether if it is of no consequence. They should be attempting (and make it clear they are attemting) to make a positive contribution to the discussion.
Excessively negative, pointless or aggressive nit-picking can of course be referred to the Admins as a form of harrassment of other forum members (if that is the effect it is having). But I doubt it will come to that.
Basically, we should expect forum members not to be this sad guy :
[caption xkcd cartoon from titled Duty Calls. A character who is typing furiously at a computer says they cannot come to bed because of something important, which is that "someone is wrong on the Internet". Oh the horror.]
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 1 2023, 5:41pm
Post #12 of 20
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what we are hoping--that this is simply for readers and enjoyers as well as scholars and possessors of multiple volumes; and the only qualification is what I guess you could call Tolkien-passion.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 1 2023, 6:54pm
Post #13 of 20
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I think we should ask oliphaunt to present them to everyone who leads a discussion...
(For new readers the idea is that nobody considering leading a discusion needs to worry they are not 'A Middle-earth Expert' - we can be 'Middle-earth Inexperts' instead, whcih sounds much more fun)
[Caption - a mock up of a woven badge that has a blue background and a dark blue/grey border. It has a picture of the One Ring, and the words "TORN Middle-earth Inexpert" are written aound it]
Or here is a more sensible badge size of the same thing:
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Mar 1 2023, 7:00pm)
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Mar 5 2023, 5:08pm
Post #14 of 20
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What a pretty little Ring! Would it fit on one of my toes...can I borrow it? Just as a trial?
I should be glad to certify other inexperts who can proudly proclaim their inexpertise.
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
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uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Mar 23 2023, 4:23pm
Post #16 of 20
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Supposing we were to adopt roughly this structure, my personal first choice would be to take on the second bit. And again, I'd be happy to do more than one if it seems needful. It is somewhat unfortunate that the first unit is the most daunting to me, but if nobody else particularly steps up for it, I'll try that as well.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 24 2023, 6:46pm
Post #17 of 20
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When to start? ASAP or after a break?
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We have a proposed plan for Denethor and as nobody has suggested improvements I suppose everyone else likes it too.
The next step is of course to set a start date and invite people to volunteer ot lead discussions.
If we wanted to start the next Tuesday after Eowyn finishes, that would mean doing the first week on 4th April.
But....
The excellent discussions are being led by a very small group of people, and already some have led more than one discussion. It would be a bad thing if folks ended up thinking they have a duty to keep the posts coming, did more than they wanted, got tired or resentful and then everything fell apart.
Maybe that is no problem, or maybe it would be good to have a break before doing Denethor?
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Mar 25 2023, 12:34am
Post #18 of 20
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I suppose there's no hurry if we choose not to feel hurried. Probably you're right and we should let the current threads play themselves out a while before going out of our way to lob another major character into the board.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 26 2023, 11:26am
Post #19 of 20
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Just want to check I wasn't being unclear...
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The last thing I want to do is to put a dampener on the energy and enthusiasm of anyone who wants to 'do' Denethor as soon as possible. For all I know there is no problem with going ahead as soon as the discussions of Eowyn finish.
I haven't (and won't on principle) do a lot of behind-the-scenes organising by DM. So I don't know if our chapter leaders so far are tiring, or whether they will in any case be re-inforced or given a rest by forum members who have not contributed so far - for example because Denethor is more interesting to them than Boromir or Eowyn.
It's just that it struck me that it was worth floating the idea of a postponed start. Any postponement only works, of course, if it involves people who will contribute but want a rest/more time.
And certainly it's no good asking me: I'm not going to be able to lead a chapter for a while, and don't know how long. But I do plan to chip in when I can if something is happening here.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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elentari3018
Rohan
Apr 9 2023, 3:19am
Post #20 of 20
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Awesome topics on a complex (and misunderstood) character!
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can't wait! :)
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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"Middle-earth Inexpert" badge
[