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Eledhwen
Forum Admin
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Feb 7 2023, 12:01pm
Post #1 of 19
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Boromir 4/5: broken
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Thanks to discussion leaders so far - I'm here to move us on to Boromir's final moments.
So, the Fellowship are at Parth Galen, and Frodo is indecisive and heads off for a wander and a think. And Boromir slips away from the group - perhaps indicative that he's still not really bonded with the rest of the Fellowship, or that everyone is generally distracted, as nobody notices this great big Man leaving - and follows.
He tells Frodo his heart is "heavy" and suggests conversation would comfort both of them and bring wisdom. He's persistent, and doesn't take Frodo's cues that he really wants to be alone. And then we get the classic line:
"The Ring! Is it not a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt for so small a thing? So small a thing! And I have seen it only for an instant in the House of Elrond. Could I not have a sight of it again?"
Frodo's response - "didn't you hear what Elrond said, mate?" - rouses Boromir and for the first time we really get a sense of how it's been working on him.
- Q1: why now? Why has it taken this long for Boromir to descend to this point? Has he been fighting the Ring all along (because after all he is of Númenor and is a tough nut)?
"It is a gift, I say; a gift to the foes of Mordor. It is mad not to use it, to use the power of the Enemy against him. The fearless, the ruthless, these alone will achieve victory."
Of course (spoiler alert) victory is eventually achieved by two small and terrified hobbits, and Boromir is very wrong here, but all he can now think about is power. Because he's fundamentally a decent bloke he talks about using that power for good, and in some ways his dreams are only an exaggerated version of the request he brought to Rivendell - for help for Gondor in its hour of need. And Frodo understands what the Ring can do (maybe for the first time, truly, but that's another discussion) as Boromir descends from dreams of power and the Ring takes control.
- Q2: At least that's how I read it, do you agree?
"If any mortals have claim to the Ring, it is the men of Númenor, and not Halflings. It is not yours save by unhappy chance. It might have been mine. It should be mine. Give it to me!"
Frodo puts on the Ring and makes a dash for it; Boromir trips and comes to himself: "A madness took me, but it has passed."
- Q3: would the madness have passed if he hadn't tripped? It's a very abrupt end to the episode.
Boromir returns to the others, and is clearly distressed, not himself, and not being entirely truthful. I think they all see through him, especially Sam, and the Fellowship all go dashing off in different ways. Dum dum duuummmm...
Cut to TTT and 'The Departure of Boromir'.
- Q4: Do you remember if you ever thought Boromir would live, when you opened up this chapter for the first time? Or is death the only possible outcome?
We hear Boromir's horn - this time blown very definitely in need - and Aragorn comes upon Boromir sitting stuck through with arrows, surrounded by his fallen foes.
"I tried to take the Ring from Frodo. I am sorry. I have paid. ... I have failed."
Aragorn thinks first of comforting Boromir, and Boromir smiles and dies - presumably at peace, at least I think this is how we're supposed to read it - but without answering Aragorn's last question about Frodo (maybe Aragorn should have asked that first ...)
"You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall not fall!"
- Q5: Does Aragorn mean victory over the Orcs, or over the Ring and temptation? Because Boromir did fail to take the Ring, although you could maybe argue that's more because Frodo managed to get away in time ... Did Boromir fail, or win?
Now we come to the funeral, which is full of gorgeous imagery. Boromir is arrayed as a warrior, with Orc swords at his feet, looking glorious and peaceful.
Sorrowfully they cast loose the funeral boat: there Boromir lay, restful, peaceful, gliding upon the bosom of the flowing water. The stream took him while they held their own boat back with their paddles. He floated by them, and slowly his boat departd, waning to a dark spot against the golden light; and then suddenly it vanished. Rauros roared on unchanging. The River had taken Boromir son of Denethor, and he was not seen again in Minas Tirith, standing as he used to stand upon the White Tower in the morning.
And then there's the poem, which shows remarkable improvisation by Aragorn and Legolas, but is beautiful and sad (and too long to type out, sorry).
- Q6: What do you think of this eulogy for Boromir? Does it do him justice?
- Q7: Would the Fellowship have broken here at Parth Galen had Boromir not tried to take the Ring? Or would Frodo have slipped away solo regardless, leaving the other seven (including Sam) to head to Minas Tirith, maybe after the Orc battle? Is Boromir the real catalyst for all that follows?
- Q8: A cheeky question to finish, for now - is Boromir's death dealt with better in book or movie? I'm actually tempted to say movie - Sean Bean sells the whole scene so brilliantly and we actually get to see him die, which I think brings the viewer catharsis which is missing in the book. And I love "My brother, my captain, my king" as a line. Does book Boromir acknowledge Aragorn as a king ("Go to Minas Tirith and save my people")?
(This post was edited by Eledhwen on Feb 7 2023, 12:02pm)
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Feb 8 2023, 12:12am
Post #2 of 19
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Q1: why now? Why has it taken this long for Boromir to descend to this point? Has he been fighting the Ring all along?
No-one found any conclusive evidence that Boromir was troubled with Ring-lust before Lorien. He did not leave Lorien unchanged. True enough that his heart was heavy, but scary how he used his friendship with Frodo.
Q2: At least that's how I read it, do you agree? Yes, despite what Gandalf, Aragorn and Elrond told Frodo, there's nothing like seeing what is happening to Boromir. And yes, the Ring's path into Boromir is through his desire to save Gondor, consistent with Gandalf's warning.
Q3: would the madness have passed if he hadn't tripped? It's a very abrupt end to the episode.
That's an interesting question, I never thought about that before. Hmmmn, tripping is a literal reminder about his fall from honor. You wouldn't expect a highly fit warrior to be stumbling, so it is out of character. As is falling for the Ring.
- Q4: Do you remember if you ever thought Boromir would live, when you opened up this chapter for the first time? Or is death the only possible outcome? Elrond's 'dire need' warning did lead me to think Boromir would wind up facing death.
Q5: Does Aragorn mean victory over the Orcs, or over the Ring and temptation?
Over evil, definitely. Boromir repented and therefore won the battle for his soul.
- Q6: What do you think of this eulogy for Boromir? Does it do him justice? I'll have to come back to this one after reading it again. More later and thanks for your work!
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Feb 8 2023, 2:00am
Post #3 of 19
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Q1: why now? Why has it taken this long for Boromir to descend to this point? Has he been fighting the Ring all along (because after all he is of Númenor and is a tough nut)?
It's been after him--or after all of them, perhaps--all along. But he may have had a vulnerability to it dating from the Council, because of his inability to understand the Ring's entire nature.
And, yes, it took a very long time under the circumstances. I'd give him credit for--while being more easily tempted due to his inability to see the danger the ring posed--resisting for so long.
Q8: A cheeky question to finish, for now - is Boromir's death dealt with better in book or movie? I'm actually tempted to say movie - Sean Bean sells the whole scene so brilliantly and we actually get to see him die, which I think brings the viewer catharsis which is missing in the book. And I love "My brother, my captain, my king" as a line. Does book Boromir acknowledge Aragorn as a king ("Go to Minas Tirith and save my people")?
I've always been in the minority here. I find the book version far more moving. The quieter nature of it pulls me into the scene; I think it's more realistic; best and most moving of all, Aragorn makes it clear he forgives Boromir and leaves him with a clear token of affection and friendship (which may not have really existed much until this point). He comforts Boromir with answers to every perceived or real failure that otherwise Boromir would have been agonizing about as he died. His guilt was relieved. Grace and redemption are both offered and received. "Boromir smiled."
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 8 2023, 8:00am
Post #4 of 19
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Q1: why now? Why has it taken this long for Boromir to descend to this point? Has he been fighting the Ring all along (because after all he is of Númenor and is a tough nut)?
The Argonath and the ruins of Amon Hen are fresh reminders to Boromir of what is at stake. Lots of emotion for the Ring to work on. A patriot like Boromir never had a chance.
"It is a gift, I say; a gift to the foes of Mordor. It is mad not to use it, to use the power of the Enemy against him. The fearless, the ruthless, these alone will achieve victory."
Of course (spoiler alert) victory is eventually achieved by two small and terrified hobbits, and Boromir is very wrong here, but all he can now think about is power. Because he's fundamentally a decent bloke he talks about using that power for good, and in some ways his dreams are only an exaggerated version of the request he brought to Rivendell - for help for Gondor in its hour of need. And Frodo understands what the Ring can do (maybe for the first time, truly, but that's another discussion) as Boromir descends from dreams of power and the Ring takes control.
Q2: At least that's how I read it, do you agree?
If Boromir takes the Ring here, and uses it effectively during the War of the Ring, then the many casualties at the Battles of the Isen, the Siege of the Hornburg, the Battle of Osgiliath, the Siege of Minas Tirith, the Battle of the Pelennor, the Battle of Dale, the Battle Under the Trees, the Battle of Lorien, the Battle of Dol Guldur, the Battle of the Black Gate, and others would either not occur or be much less.
A consummation devoutly to be wished and not a dream blithely cast aside..
How ever could Boromir have resisted?
Q3: would the madness have passed if he hadn't tripped? It's a very abrupt end to the episode.
It's consistent. Compare here with what happens later:
“Give it to me!”…“What have I said?” he cried. “What have I done? Frodo, Frodo!”
-The Breaking of the Fellowship
'Give it to me!' he cried, standing up, holding out a trembling hand. 'Give it me at once!”…”O Sam!” cried Frodo. “What have I said? What have I done? Forgive me!”
-The Tower of Cirith Ungol
Note also how quickly Bilbo gets over being all stabby-stabby with Gandalf over the Ring in “A Long-expected Party".
- Q4: Do you remember if you ever thought Boromir would live, when you opened up this chapter for the first time? Or is death the only possible outcome?
I kept expecting him to swim ashore at the beaches of Dol Amroth with a starfish attached to his backside.
Q5: Does Aragorn mean victory over the Orcs, or over the Ring and temptation?
Yes.
Because Boromir did fail to take the Ring, although you could maybe argue that's more because Frodo managed to get away in time
Do you really think big bad warrior Boromir couldn’t have taken the Ring away from a little hobbit if he truly had wanted to?
Did Boromir fail, or win?
Win/win.
Q6: What do you think of this eulogy for Boromir?
It’s like an Anglo-Saxon poem. You can even see where to put the caesuras. Lots of alliteration, though it doesn’t seem in-you-face like a lot of other alliterative poetry. It’s more natural.
It does seem strange that two different beings, of two different races, one mortal the other immortal, should simultaneously and extemporaneously come up with verses with identical structures and motifs. Almost like the poem/song was written by the same person. Or else there’s a standard “plug and play” structure for Middle-earth laments.
Does it do him justice?
Does any eulogy truly do the departed justice?
Q7: Would the Fellowship have broken here at Parth Galen had Boromir not tried to take the Ring?
Undoubtedly.
Or would Frodo have slipped away solo regardless, leaving the other seven (including Sam) to head to Minas Tirith, maybe after the Orc battle?
Yep.
Is Boromir the real catalyst for all that follows?
I’d say the catalyst was Frodo wandering off alone. How could Boromir resist? It was like dangling raw meat in front of a starving lion. I think the Ring made Frodo do it.
Q8: A cheeky question to finish, for now - is Boromir's death dealt with better in book or movie?
Yes. The different treatments aptly demonstrates the particular strengths of both mediums. The book death wouldn’t have worked as well on the screen, and the screen death wouldn’t have worked as well in the book.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 8 2023, 8:04am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 8 2023, 10:32am
Post #5 of 19
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"A madness took me, but it has passed."
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"A madness took me, but it has passed."
Hmmm. Really? 'Passed' in what sense?
I notice that Boromir uses two modes or voices as he tries to get the Ring from Frodo.
- A voice apparently that advances appeals to reason and does so with apparent motives of concern, pity, what-is-sensible. But this voice is still after the Ring, it just cloaks itself in reason.
- There's also a voice or mode that is unhinged suspicion, anger, envy, lust for the Ring, violence.
I think both voices are to do with the effect of the Ring (or, of the effect of the Ring existing and obsessively wanting it).
I'm going to call them (1) Boroméagol and (2) Gollumir.
I bet they were fun company inside Boromir's head on that long boat ride, with nothing much else to do.
So who says: "A madness took me, but it has passed": Is sane-Boromir back once and for all, or is this Boroméagol speaking, and what has passed is not the madness, but the chance to get something from it? After all, Frodo, we're told by the narrator, is far away by this time, but since he went invisble, it's possible he's still in earshot and some more pleading might provide the opportunity for a further lunge?
Or, if sane-Boromir is back in charge, would he keep control given a further opportunity?
We don't of course find out - Frodo is gone for good, and Boromir never sees him or the Ring again.
And (as far as I could tell from re-reading last night) we don't get any other clues whether Boroméagol and Gollumir are still around. Everything could be absolute genuine horror and contrition , or calculating how to behave in case there is a further chance to be a Ring-grabber. Everythig that is ...except this:
"I tried to take the Ring from Frodo. I am sorry. I have paid. ... I have failed."
I think "I am sorry. I have paid" can only be sane-Boromir.
"I have failed" could still be him, or Boroméagol; or even, just about Gollumir. Because the question can be 'failed at what'?
But that's for a different post, I think.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 8 2023, 12:04pm
Post #6 of 19
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Did Boromir fail, or win? (it's about Heroic failure)
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"I tried to take the Ring from Frodo. I am sorry. I have paid. ... I have failed."
Aragorn thinks first of comforting Boromir, and Boromir smiles and dies - presumably at peace, at least I think this is how we're supposed to read it - but without answering Aragorn's last question about Frodo (maybe Aragorn should have asked that first ...)
"You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall not fall!"
- Q5: Does Aragorn mean victory over the Orcs, or over the Ring and temptation? Because Boromir did fail to take the Ring, although you could maybe argue that's more because Frodo managed to get away in time ... Did Boromir fail, or win?
The victory is clearly victory over the orcs (as one meaning). Glorious death for Boromir the Early-medievalish Warrior. Beyond that: It would be harsh to give Boromir a full works appraisal under the circumstances, don't you think? 
Possible double-meaning: Has Boromir conqured himself, or those pesky chaps Boroméagol and Gollumir? I think Readers are left to decide: both whether Boromir did, and whether that could be what Aragorn means.
Now, apparenty, “LotR most useless heroic sacrifice still bugs fans”- or at least that was the questionable assertion that inadvertently launched this very enjoyable project. And I think part of the problem is seeing it as a 'heroic sacrifice' and not seeing it as a heroic failure.
I'll explain.
What difference would it have made had Boromir not fought the orcs (or had been killed instantly by the first arrow)? In practical terms, none at all.
- Merry and Pippin would still be captives of a slightly larger band of orcs.
- Aragorn would still deduce who had been captured (Barrow Blades dropped amid the carnage show it was M&P who the orcs captured; Sam's characteristically large pack missing from camp site, Frodo missing with boat and second pack show F&S set off alone; all other members of the Company accounted for.)
- We still wouldn't know what happened to Kevin*.
So the heroism being admired is that Boromir went into a battle against impossible odds because that was the right thing to do, and survived long enough to show his courage and character. That's a good thing to admire, regardless of the other circumstances.
It might be worth pausing a moment to think about Tolkien's own cultural context here. Not only would it be appropriate for an early-medievalish setting to admire courage in the face of certain failure, but it was definately an Imperial-era British thing to do too. For instance, the doomed Polar explorers Franklin and (seperately) RF Scott were huge popular heroes depsite each dying in the snows (and, later analysis suggests, these deaths being significatly because of their mistakes, incompetence, and determination to explore in a culturally British way).
And also: if memory serves about 1 in 5 of Tolkien's own junior officer contemporaries died in World War I, (c.f. 1 in 8 of the enlisted men). Regardless of the exact statistics, the lists of names on the war memorials in Britain go on and on heartbreakingly: all the more so given the size at that time of the communities from which these men came, and the family names that recur. Of course all this is also true in France, Germany, and other countries too.
Again, questions were later asked about the competence of the leaders who put those young men there; and again, I'd say that's both a valid set of questions and a seperate thing to their behaviour in the circumstances they found themselves in.
Back to Middle--earth: I posit that the other circumstances are abject failure, though not necessarily Boromir's. It was not due to Boromir that the orcs attacked. It was (inadvertently and partly) due to Boromir that the orcs didn't attack the Fellowship's camp while they were deep in debate, without any watch posted, and kill or capture the lot of them.
And that both of thiose things are an important part of the story. That's the book -- this was pretty much lost from the PJ movie: and replaced with something that worked well for that adaptation, though perhaps contributing to the alleged 'bug' in the story, which confuses 'fans' .
Whose failure then? Well according to Aragorn (immediately Boromir has died):
Alas!’ said Aragorn. ‘Thus passes the heir of Denethor, Lord of the Tower of Guard! This is a bitter end. Now the Company is all in ruin.
It is I that have failed. Vain was Gandalf’s trust in me. What shall I do now? Boromir has laid it on me to go to Minas Tirith, and my heart desires it; but where are the Ring and the Bearer? How shall I find them and save the Quest from disaster?’
He knelt for a while, bent with weeping, still clasping Boromir’s hand. So it was that Legolas and Gimli found him.
[my bolds] This is not a totally unfair assessment, if you ask me. And I think this is such an important point. This is rock bottom for Aragorn. And it from here that he goes on -- as duty requires -- putting himself, and things, and other people back together as he can to become King. A lot of Book III covers that process, if you ask me. And that's heroic too -- I'd say more so and more useful as an example in real life than some wish-fulfillment character who just wins all the time and gets everything right.
I think this sort of thing is a fundamental and important part of Tolkien's story.
(Nor is Aragorn's self-assessment totally fair either: he's overlooking the role of something he noted in The Breaking of the Felowship: Powers). But I think that's for a different post.
My own cheeky movie comparison:
Boromir's death in the movie does something fundamentally different, I think. It does a good job of what it does. It doesn't attempt to do what I think Tolkien is doing (or, at least, what his text does to me, as I've explained above).
The FOTR movie script writers wanted (I think I recall hearing from one of the documentary extras on the discs) a stirring and uplifting ending for the first movie. That's what they achieved, anyway.
FOTR movie audiences have had an original sub-plot in which Aragorn is anxious that he might succumb to the Ring. So Boromir starts to become the one who does, where Aragorn doesn't. To make this quite explicit, Frodo actually offers Aragorn the Ring (ridiculous if you think about it, but works emotionally as you watch: or it does for me at an rate). Aragorn folds Frodo's hand around it and then provides a rearguard to let Frodo escape from the orcs. Frodo's need to ecape without the Fellowship is (somehow) understood by M&P who make themselves bait to distract the orcs. The improvised plan works well. Fights, Stunts, Visual Spectacle. Aragorn reaches Boromir while B is surprisingly chatty for a man with multiple thoracic puncture wounds. Fine performances of a touching scene in which the bromance is resolved as well as it might be, and Aragorn is packed off to Gondor with Boromir's dying blessing, not another duty 'laid upon him' when it all seems impossible already, and allready gone to ruin.
Meanwhile, what does Tolkien give us? Total Confusion! Failure! Remorse! Weeping! And yet, not dispairing (though well you might); and carrying on.
---
*
Is that a decision of his own, or was it arranged by Aragorn, or was it more by default that he ended up with Merry and Pippin? (My computer just decided that this was Merry and Kevin. Bonus question: how may this have changed everything?! )
http://newboards.theonering.net/...post=1000883#1000883
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 8 2023, 12:33pm
Post #7 of 19
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We're fated to discuss fate - or are we free to do so?
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- Q7: Would the Fellowship have broken here at Parth Galen had Boromir not tried to take the Ring? Or would Frodo have slipped away solo regardless, leaving the other seven (including Sam) to head to Minas Tirith, maybe after the Orc battle? Is Boromir the real catalyst for all that follows? That classic topic of fate and free will. On the topic in general, I think we're each free to imagine it works the way we think it does, and therfore fated to come to no overall consensus (not that consensus is essential).
But in this chapter, Tolkien does drop some clues:
Aragorn, realising that the Company cannot 'decide for Frodo' (as has been proposed):
‘He is the Bearer, and the fate of the Burden is on him. I do not think that it is our part to drive him one way or the other. Nor do I think that we should succeed, if we tried. There are other powers at work far stronger.
FOTR: Breaking of the Fellowship (my bolds)
I think Aragorn is right about that. The Company responds to Boromir's return and shifty part-explanation with uncharacteristic 'panic or 'madness' (Tolkien's words):
Wait a moment!’ cried Aragorn. ‘We must divide up into pairs, and arrange–here, hold on! Wait!’
It was no good. They took no notice of him. Sam had dashed off first. Merry and Pippin had followed, and were already disappearing westward into the trees by the shore, shouting: Frodo! Frodo! in their clear, high, hobbit-voices. Legolas and Gimli were running. A sudden panic or madness seemed to have fallen on the Company.”
ibid
And so it carries on:
Come with me, Sam!’ he [Aragorn] said. ‘None of us should be alone. There is mischief about. I feel it. I am going to the top, to the Seat of Amon Hen, to see what may be seen. And look! It is as my heart guessed, Frodo went this way. Follow me, and keep your eyes open!’ He sped up the path.
Sam did his best, but he could not keep up with Strider the Ranger, and soon fell behind. He had not gone far before Aragorn was out of sight ahead.
ibid
Whatever 'mischief' is about (if it is mischief) causes Aragorn to ask Sam to stick with him, and then make that impossible.
But this cause Sam to think instead of run, and go back down the hill after Frodo.
Frodo needs a boat, and cannot get away unless the camp site has been temporarily deserted, for example because of a sudden 'panic or 'madness' (the orcs have not come on the scene yet).
Frodo makes this explicit:
‘Now, Sam,’ said Frodo, ‘don’t hinder me! The others will be coming back at any minute. If they catch me here, I shall have to argue and explain, and I shall never have the heart or the chance to get off. But I must go at once. It’s the only way.’
Or Aragorn, understanding (In Departure of Boromir):
Sam was right, I think. Frodo did not wish to lead any friend to death with him in Mordor. But he knew that he must go himself. Something happened after he left us that overcame his fear and doubt.’
‘Maybe hunting Orcs came on him and he fled,’ said Legolas.
‘He fled, certainly,’ said Aragorn, ‘but not, I think, from Orcs.’ What he thought was the cause of Frodo’s sudden resolve and flight Aragorn did not say. The last words of Boromir he long kept secret.
What I make of it is this:
Aragorn is right - because of [waves arm vaguely] Powers, Frodo is the one who will decide. So far he has 'indecided'. I don't think that Powers are going to intervene Jonah-like: a handy Providential whale takes Frodo across the River when he won't go by himself. (Why Doesn't The Whale Take The Ring To Mordor, Fans Ask? 1,000 inconsequential words of clickbait seperating plenty of adverts.)
But Boromir makes up his mind for him. On Amon Hen Frodo decides 'I will do now what I must.'
Choice made freely, time for Fate. I think Powers now take effect.
How I see it is that when the Ringbearer has decided to continue the quest, a way appears. It doesn't have to be a comfortable or obvious way, and you might fall into it: but it's a way.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 8 2023, 12:37pm)
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Eledhwen
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 8 2023, 2:33pm
Post #8 of 19
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Comments on comments so far ...
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Everyone else seems to be a much deeper thinker than me!
Darkstone - good point about Frodo in Cirith Ungol, I hadn't drawn that parallel before.
It does seem strange that two different beings, of two different races, one mortal the other immortal, should simultaneously and extemporaneously come up with verses with identical structures and motifs. Almost like the poem/song was written by the same person. Or else there’s a standard “plug and play” structure for Middle-earth laments.
Heehee. Indeed.
noWizardme - I think saneBoromir is back in charge after the madness passes, and I believe he stays in charge thereafter. Although the dual voices idea is nice.
Failure - I do think Boromir's is a heroic sacrifice, but agree Aragorn has failed (we should definitely do an Aragorn discussion). Or maybe the answer rather is that Boromir redeems his failure over the Ring with his heroic sacrifice, and Aragorn redeems his failure of leadership here with plenty of very good decisions hereonout.
EthelDuath - perhaps a failure of Tolkien's writing is that we don't see much interaction between Aragorn and Boromir until this moment, although Boromir has more in common with Aragorn (a Man, a warrior, of Gondor) than with anyone else in the Fellowship?
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 8 2023, 4:25pm
Post #9 of 19
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Heroic sacrifice & debts of honour
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Failure - I do think Boromir's is a heroic sacrifice, but agree Aragorn has failed (we should definitely do an Aragorn discussion). Or maybe the answer rather is that Boromir redeems his failure over the Ring with his heroic sacrifice, and Aragorn redeems his failure of leadership here with plenty of very good decisions hereonout.
I think this 'heroic sacrifice' descriptor works well!
Boromir saying "I tried to take the Ring from Frodo. I am sorry. I have paid. ... I have failed." Suggests to me that he is seeing his death as a sort of payment ('sacrifice' ?) for his attack on Frodo.
And Boromir has given his life for the (probably hopeless but nevertheless attempted) defence of Frodo's kinsmen, Merry and Pippin. Perhaps there is a sort of early-medieval logic to that? (someone - Darkstone, SirDennisC, someone else - will know).
I note that it's a feeling of obligation to Boromir (as well as some needling from Denethor) that causes Pippin to volunteer for The Tower Guard.
And then Private Pippin of the Tower Guard risks his life to save Boromir's brother, Faramir.
Which prevents the Gandalf Vs. Witch King showdown, which leads to the death of Theoden and hospitalisation of Eowyn, which in turn leads to...
Ripples, ripples...
And yes, Aragorn's days of highly questionable decisions seem over now. Not that he's been a chronically bad, but (as per Darkstone) both heading to Weathertop and dallying with boats have worked out badly. Going onwards, he's apologetic and uncertain leading The Three Hunters, but he correctly judges a daring way to handle Eomer (and Gimli). After that, I can't think he puts a foot wrong. By then of course, he's back with his old doubles partner, Gandalf.
An Aragorn discussion would indeed be good. And there are many other excellent options, I think. With 2 Boromir weeks left we ought to soon start discussing who the next character should be (or 'who next' of the many choices). We'll also ultimately have to decide how to divide that next character's story into appropriate weekly sections, and who is going to be the Conversation Starter for each week.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Feb 9 2023, 12:11am
Post #10 of 19
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"The Ring! Is it not a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt for so small a thing? So small a thing! And I have seen it only for an instant in the House of Elrond. Could I not have a sight of it again?"
Frodo's response - "didn't you hear what Elrond said, mate?" - rouses Boromir and for the first time we really get a sense of how it's been working on him.
- Q2: At least that's how I read it, do you agree?
Well, that's when it becomes clear he's hit the "addiction" point. "Just let me smell the cookie." And, of course, once he'd seen it, the lust would take over entirely, and possibly permanently (?) But this is basically the same as what Bilbo said to Frodo in Rivendell: "'I should very much just like to peep at it again.'
'Yes, I've got it,' answered Frodo, feeling a strange reluctance.' 'It looks just the same as ever it did.''Well, I should just like to see it for a moment,' said Bilbo."
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"If any mortals have claim to the Ring, it is the men of Númenor, and not Halflings. It is not yours save by unhappy chance. It might have been mine. It should be mine. Give it to me!"
Frodo puts on the Ring and makes a dash for it; Boromir trips and comes to himself: "A madness took me, but it has passed."
- Q3: would the madness have passed if he hadn't tripped? It's a very abrupt end to the episode.
I think so; but i also think it helped bring it to an end sooner.
- Q4: Do you remember if you ever thought Boromir would live, when you opened up this chapter for the first time? Or is death the only possible outcome?
It never occurred to me that he would die, actually. But then I was 12 years old at the time.
Q6: What do you think of this eulogy for Boromir? Does it do him justice?
Yes, oh yes. I think it's better than most of the other poetry in the books.
- Q7: Would the Fellowship have broken here at Parth Galen had Boromir not tried to take the Ring? Or would Frodo have slipped away solo regardless, leaving the other seven (including Sam) to head to Minas Tirith, maybe after the Orc battle? Is Boromir the real catalyst for all that follows?
It would have happened anyway, in some configuration or other. But Boromir actually may have been instrumental in Frodo getting away in time, before the orcs might have found him. Another instance of "Evil will oft evil mar." But he was also responsible for the 3-way split which I can't see happening otherwise.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Feb 9 2023, 12:19am
Post #11 of 19
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I like this: "It's consistent. Compare here with what happens later: "
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Interesting how the will of each is able to re-assert itself. Gollum is a notable exception.
Because Boromir did fail to take the Ring, although you could maybe argue that's more because Frodo managed to get away in time.Well, he did get the ring on just in the nick of time, or it certainly would have been a foregone conclusion.
But I agree, Boromir really didn't stand a chance by this point.
And thanks for this. It's some of my favorite poetry in the book.
" It’s like an Anglo-Saxon poem. You can even see where to put the caesuras. Lots of alliteration, though it doesn’t seem in-you-face like a lot of other alliterative poetry. It’s more natural. "
It seemed "Anglo-Saxon-ish" but I didn't think that form used rhymes.
It does seem strange that two different beings, of two different races, one mortal the other immortal, should simultaneously and extemporaneously come up with verses with identical structures and motifs. Almost like the poem/song was written by the same person. Or else there’s a standard “plug and play” structure for Middle-earth laments.
I vote for you last sentence--a glimpse into a long-standing "Free Peoples" tradition, or something like that.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 9 2023, 12:19pm
Post #12 of 19
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It seemed "Anglo-Saxon-ish" but I didn't think that form used rhymes.
Anglo-Saxon poetry creates rhythm through stressed syllables and alliteration whereas Latin poetry uses meter and rhyme.
Tolkien combines the two forms brilliantly.
The sibilance of "From the mouths of the Sea the South Wind flies, from the sandhills and the stones" is especially nice.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Feb 9 2023, 8:15pm
Post #13 of 19
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That brought something out: the whole first 3 lines
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of that stanza evoke the wind, by both sound and vision. All those sibilants, in the first and third lines, plus the wailing gulls and the moaning past the unknown gate, gives the reader/listener a whole range of "windy" sound effects. The second two lines steers the sound we hear in our heads towards the mournful.
Thank you!
I'm now going to take a whole new look at a bunch of his poetry--especially the "Anglo-Saxon-y varieties."
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Feb 9 2023, 8:32pm
Post #14 of 19
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I like this.
I think that's pretty accurate for his whole conversation with Frodo.
But after he fell and wept (no one to see the tears. I'm sure he didn't imagine Frodo had stuck around invisible for more than a second or 2 if that), I believe he was Actual Boromir then. It gave him a chance to be more or less in that mode from then on until the orc attack, and thereby better prepared to meet it as he did.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Feb 9 2023, 8:57pm
Post #15 of 19
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Yes, I think the "first" meaning is definitely victory over the orcs--Boromir looks around on them and says "I have paid," and I'm sure Aragorn is referencing that. The victory over his prior fall I think is left ambiguous on Aragorn's part to let Boromir take whatever additional meanings he is capable of thinking about while he's dying. It's hard to know what Aragorn had in mind for sure. On Tolkien's part, I'm betting it's "all possible meanings" for us to think about.
And, yes, unlike the movie, Boromir basically saved the Fellowship, which most likely would have ceased to exist even in a splintered state without him.
But the Anglo-Saxon warrior thing is also absolutely legitimate--even, I would say in the movie, but especially in the books. There's that Norse religion idea about the noble defeat: "Will shall be the sterner, heart the bolder, spirit the greater as our strength lessens. And of course in the LOTR books: " 'Rightly said!' cried Beregond, rising and striding to and fro. 'Nay, though all things must come utterly to an end in time, Gondor shall not perish yet. Not though the walls be taken by a reckless foe that will build a hill of carrion before them. There are still other fastnesses, and secret ways of escape into the mountains. Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green.'"
As far as Tolkien's thoughts about it, it certainly seems to in in the culture, like Churchill and the cavalry charge of the British Army at Omdurman.
And along with "Total Confusion! Failure! Remorse! Weeping! And yet, not despairing" there's always some sort of victory, and/or something leading towards it.
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squire
Half-elven
Feb 9 2023, 9:59pm
Post #16 of 19
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Read the songs of the Rohirrim
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Given that Rohan's language and culture are explicitly modeled on Anglo-Saxon culture, Tolkien shows his strongest alliterative style with the two excerpts, so-called, from poems sung later about Theoden's ride to Gondor.
From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning
with thane and captain rode Thengel’s son:
to Edoras he came, the ancient halls
of the Mark-wardens mist-enshrouded;
golden timbers were in gloom mantled. (LR V.3)and
We heard of the horns in the hills ringing,
the swords shining in the South-kingdom.
Steeds went striding to the Stoningland
as wind in the morning. War was kindled. (LR V.6)The thing about these, to me, is that Tolkien could probably have gone on and composed an entire Rohirric epic in oral-poetry style, about the War of the Ring. But of course he didn't, even though these sound absolutely like they belong to a longer work. In reality, he seems to have thrown them together, expertly for sure, just to add some epic flavor to his prose narrative. Probably took him a weekend of pleasant wordplay!
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Feb 10 2023, 3:37am
Post #18 of 19
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I always thought these were among his best poetry
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by a long shot.
It's interesting how the weight of the stresses (I want to call them "accents" like in music) gives these verses their own sort of rhythmic pulse that adds greatly to the mood and atmosphere, and the feelings expressed. It's captivating. Tolkien certainly had an ear for it. I certainly wish he'd composed an epic like that!
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sevilodorf
Tol Eressea
Feb 12 2023, 4:59pm
Post #19 of 19
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- Q1: why now? Why has it taken this long for Boromir to descend to this point? Has he been fighting the Ring all along (because after all he is of Númenor and is a tough nut)?
- Q3: would the madness have passed if he hadn't tripped? It's a very abrupt end to the episode.
From the moment it was brought out at the Council of Elrond, it’s been working on him. It’s an insidious voice whispering in his mind which he has been brushing aside. Then in Lorien the “voice/ring” gained more fuel in the form of Boromir’s distrust of the elves or perhaps shame that his inner desires have been scoped out and judged.
I compare the temptation of Boromir to Sam’s experiences -- Sam is tempted with fantasies of Samwise the Strong leading armies to overthrow Barad-dur and commanding Gorgoroth to become a garden -- imagine what the Ring offered Boromir -- and as with Sam’s core of hobbit sense -- Boromir has a core of decency and honor. The Ring and it’s Master do not understand such traits and view them as weaknesses but these qualities are what make GOOD in the world.
It took Boromir tripping to snap him out of his illusion at that moment but something would have done it --
- Q5: Does Aragorn mean victory over the Orcs, or over the Ring and temptation? Because Boromir did fail to take the Ring, although you could maybe argue that's more because Frodo managed to get away in time ... Did Boromir fail, or win?
- Q7: Would the Fellowship have broken here at Parth Galen had Boromir not tried to take the Ring? Or would Frodo have slipped away solo regardless, leaving the other seven (including Sam) to head to Minas Tirith, maybe after the Orc battle? Is Boromir the real catalyst for all that follows?
Victory over his internal battles which Aragorn himself has endured, perhaps.
Boromir’s actions are some of the pebbles that lead to the avalanche that results in Sauron’s defeat -- the Fellowship not being captured as a group (as someone pointed out) Merry and Pippin’s being taking captive rather than killed -- which while not great for them was what put them in the right place at the right time to bring the Ents into the War and defeat Saruman which put a MAJOR spoke in things, pushing Frodo to make a decision (because he was dithering about-- as Sam put it.... terrified ), creating the circumstances that cement Gimli and Legolas’s friendship.
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