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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 25, 1:51pm
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Boromir - a "What if?" and "What is?" -- a digression
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I accidentely gave us a week off discussing Boromir when I made the schedule. I think there is more to the first two discussions to do before 'normal service' resumes next week. But maybe we can also make good use of the time to discuss a line of thought that has already come up, but has the potential to be a complicated tangent that may or may not interest everyone.
The question is "What if Faramir Instead" (hereafter "WIFI") came to the Council of Elrond, not Boromir?
I've wondered when best to discuss this, and I'm not entirely sure the answer is 'here'. But I think it has a good chance of working out. Please would the leaders of upcoming chapters warn us off going too far into territory they think is better explored when the time comes (or, when their time comes)? Meanwhile, by discussing 'WIFI' at least a bit, we can also discuss the whole idea of exploring Tolkien's text, within the scope of the Reading Room, by making up any "what if?" scenarios.
It's a way of engaing with the text that I find both intriguing and confusing.
Boromir says that the prophetic dream that kicks off their quest came first and more to Faramir. We've seen that explanations include that this is an opportunity for Tolkien to show us something about Boromir's character (he is protectivie of his younger brother; or is a glory hound; or other explanations that appeal to other readers). Or it could be a hint that Faramir was "meant" to take the quest, and so perhaps an invitation to wonder how that would have worked out. Neither explanation seems implausible to me.
We note that while Boromir ultimately tries to take the Ring, Faramir is able to send Frodo on his way. 'WIFI' presumably then suggests that "Faramir of the Fellowship" does not try to take the Ring.
That drives a cart and horses through Tolkien's plot, I think.
This is something that we might want to wait to explore in full when we do the Death of Boromir, because these effects are one way of assessing the significance of that death.
For now let's say that none of the Fellowship's discussions about what to do at Parth Galen include "OK - Frodo and Sam go to Mordor. Pippin and Merry go to Fangorn to raise the Ents. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli bolster the defence of Rohan and Minas Tirith."
Nobody would have suggested that plan, and if they had, nobody else would have agreed to it.
"What would have happened?" is something that I don't think we can get far with using the tools of the Reading Room. It would involve deciding what the Fellowship were going to end up agreeing on Parth Galen, and what would happen as a result. And that is using the tools of fan fiction, surely. The new author of this new plot can decide to make it as plausible as possible within what is known of Tolkien's characters and of Middle-earth. And I suppose they can outline plots or write prose as a sort of experimental branch or litereary criticism, attemting to answer this sort of 'what if?' question. But still, it's a new story.
I suppose that one thing an author of such a fiction must consider, even if implicitly, is the role of fate in Middle-earth. Are some things just sure to happen no matter what? On the one hand that is a philosophical question about how Tolkien imagined Middle-earth (or how a careful reader might want to imagine it). On the other hand it is the set up for fan fiction or another game with the text. An exercise where the problem is to bring things back to Tolkien's existing plot in the most ingenious, plausible way possible (or to do it in the most amusingly absurd way possible).
Alternatively, the new author makes a change, and then has to make more and more. I suppose that soon one is well beyond anywhere where Tolkien's writings can be a guide, and what is happening depends on the tastes, beliefs, themes and preferences of the new author.
I know that many members of this forum read, write or help publish fan fiction, so maybe they could say whether people do write this sort of thing (as an exploration of 'what if?' alternative plot lines) and if so what factors are considered to make a good one, and what is considered a bungle? And I'd be interested in other thoughts about 'what if?' plots from those Reading Room forum members who have a fan fictoneer's insight into these things.
But what if we stick closely to analysing Tolkien's story, rather than using his imagined world and characters as starting points for new ideas?
Then I think we have to give up "What if?" and replace it for "What is?" What is Boromir's role or importance in Tolkien's story? One obvious answer is that he causes the Fellowship to break, in a way that would take a lot of re-writing to do otherwise. But that may not be a complete answer (I don't think it is).
Tolkien could surely have contrived some other way of achieving the breaking of the Fellowship had he wished - there's no evidence that he was under editorial pressure to bump off one of the Fellowship to show things were 'real' or 'gritty' (or similar). And there's ample evidence that he was a good enough writer not to get stuck in a hole where the only way out was to do something he didn't really want to. Or, rather, when that did happen, he worked and re-wrote until he found a solution.
I think Boromir breaks the Fellowship in the way he breaks it because that is what Tolkien wanted.
So now we have the question, "What is" it about Boromir's betrayal of Frodo and redeeming death that Tolkien thought worked better than any alternative plot? Or, since we can't now ask Tolkien that and I don't think he commented on it for us, we will have to think about why he made the choices he did make, based on the good qualities of the results.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Eledhwen
Forum Admin
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Jan 25, 4:19pm
Post #2 of 20
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I once wrote a long 'what-if' ...
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which posited that Denethor is persuaded not to chuck himself into the Pyre, and thus lives. (It's here, if anyone is interested). I like AUs and what-if fics, but never thought about writing a WIFI fic. I'm not even sure the question ever crossed my mind before the other week. I think the key to a good what-if is that even while it departs canon, the characters should remain 'true' - if you're having them do something different from canon, then there needs to be an in-character, plausible reason for it.
So the plausible reason for Faramir to go to Rivendell would be a) it's his dream, mostly. He has ownership of this prophecy in a way Boromir really doesn't; b) Denethor decides Boromir, Captain of Gondor, is better-placed to lead the defence of Gondor than his younger brother. The force in Ithilien is small enough really for another competent captain to be in charge; c) Denethor cares far more that Boromir lives than Faramir, so sending Faramir off on a hopeless quest arguably makes a ton more sense; d) Faramir wants to go, anyway. He and Boromir both say as much. Indeed it's almost a bit weird that Boromir ends up going in the first place.
Then why does Tolkien send Boromir? Maybe simply that Boromir's fall is the one thing which shows us, your modest human reader, what the true power of the Ring is. Faramir resists. Boromir cannot, and thus we, less mighty men than Boromir, know it's really something not to be trifled with. Maybe he's our reflection in the story.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jan 25, 5:19pm
Post #3 of 20
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Yes! oliphaunt thinks Boromir is supposed to be the most like ordinary mortal humans out of the company.
When did Faramir appear in the course of writing? My memory may be wrong (which is quite rare for an oliphaunt) but I thought Tolkien added Faramir rather later than Boromir. Thus, Faramir references were edited into the Rivendell sequence later?
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 25, 5:34pm
Post #4 of 20
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Yes, Faramir 'turned up' later
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A new character has come on the scene (I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking into the woods of Ithilien): Faramir, the brother of Boromir
Letter #66 to Chrstopher Tolkien, May 1944
JRR is clearly writing the first draft of the Ithilien section at the time. So I'm pretty sure Boromir is already fallen, redemed and mourned by the cast.
And so that gives us one practical reason Tolkien had 'no WIFI signal': I think that when FOTR was already pretty much done and dusted, there was no Faramir to go to Imladris (squire made this point in week 1). Of course anything can be changed in revision, but I can imagine not wanting to undo a whle lot of perfectly satisfactory writing!
Of course Tolkien must have added that bit that suggests Boromir went instead of Faramir, and hence suggesting WIFI to his readers (why not let Boromir alone have the dream?)
I don't know how when and why Tolkien did that, or whether HoME or something sheds any light upon it?
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 25, 5:43pm)
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Eledhwen
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Jan 25, 6:13pm
Post #5 of 20
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I shall try and look through HOME at some point
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He did a lot of revisions throughout the process of writing, but you're right, I'm sure that going back and replacing all of Boromir with Faramir would have been a bit of an effort.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jan 25, 6:22pm
Post #6 of 20
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Perhaps so readers wouldn't ask why only Boromir had the dream, when Faramir is the more sensitive bro. Faramir has the long vision of Boromir's funeral boat, so sharing the dream about the prophecy makes sense. Taking the dream away from Boromir altogether would have been awkward. So Faramir shares the dream, is in fact more attuned to it, and that sets him up to be more thoughtful than Boromir.
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
(This post was edited by oliphaunt on Jan 25, 6:22pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 25, 6:40pm
Post #7 of 20
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"why not let Boromir alone have the dream?" - a suggestion
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(Cross-posted with an alternative good suggestion from oliphaunt )
why not let Boromir alone have the dream?
me, just now
One possibility is that it is to do with ideas of fate and free will in Middle-earth, a subject I find both interesting and frustrating.
I think it is pretty hard for an attentive reader of LOTR to miss that some things seem fated to happen, or 'meant' to happen Or that setbacks and disasters and bad turns of events turn out to provide a route to success (and sometimes look like the unlikely way in which the only feasible path to success was discovered).
Lest a reader miss this, Gandalf is on hand several times to point it out. And sometimes we get similar comments from oters (Gildor, Elrond, and Galadriel off the top of my head).
And yet, free will is important too.
Now we can read the wider legendarium (which Tolkien's readers could not between the publication of LOTR and the Sil.) we can relate this to the creation myth we're told. Rather than everything would be hunky-dory if people weren't sinful, bad things are a baked-in part of creation (thanks Melkor). But the are part of the creation, and the task for the Children of Iluvitar is to fix things up.
But I'm not sure that helps a lot in deciding when characters are acting by free will and when they are the pawns of fate.
And the risk involved in going beyond the 'meant to happen', 'it may have been better so', 'by chance as it may seem*', 'oft evil will shall evil mar' etc. clues in the text is that it is easy to mix up what a person in Middle-earth is fated to do (in feigned history) with what characters have to do because they are part of a carefully structured plot (the story as literature).
So this is a difficult area.
But if the dream comes to Boromir only, does it look as if he is fated to go to Imladris - almost lured to do so - and might that suggest he is then on rails to trying to take the Ring?
Whereas if he goes instead of Faramir, does this involve the demonstration that free will is involved?
Either way, Boromir does something that leads to personal disaster (and then moral redemption, but death), but he accidentely achives the throwing of the rest of the Fellowship onto the right paths for success.
Was this unforseeable but inevitable once Boromir sets out for Imladris? Or avoidable, according to what further choices are made? Dunno, and how would we know?.
----
*that one's Elrond
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 25, 6:42pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 25, 8:46pm
Post #8 of 20
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1. When Faramir first sees Aragorn at Rivendell he instantly acknowledges the return of the king: “What does the king command? For who would lie idle when the king has returned?”
2. The Fellowship freezes to death on Caradhras because Faramir didn’t bring any wood. (Reset scenario.)
3. Faramir doesn’t wake The Watcher in the Water so they’re not stampeded into Moria. When they see how desolate it appears they risk the Gap of Rohan and are killed by an army of Uruk-hai. (Reset scenario.)
4. At the Bridge of Kazad-Dum Boromir is not there to blow his horn to cause the charging orcs and Balrog to hesitate so instead of having time to get away the Fellowship gets killed in the rapid attack. (Reset scenario.)
5. When they get to Lothlorien Faramir decides he’s found his true home and people as opposed to the abusive toxic patriarchy of Gondor and settles down with an Elf maiden. Without Faramir falling to the Black Breath on the Pelennor there’s no curing by athelas and no “The hands of the king are the hands of a healer” proof that Aragorn is the true king. Denethor tosses Aragorn out on his ear. (Reset scenario.)
6. At Amon Hen Faramir doesn’t follow Frodo so Frodo and Sam are captured by Uruk-hai and taken to Isengard.
7. Forth The Six Hunters.
8. After being rescued by Treebeard, since Sam keeps proclaiming himself a gardener, at the Entmoot the Ents decide Frodo and Sam are Entwives. (Error! Error! Slash fiction detected!!)
9. At Edoras Eowyn thaws and Faramir doesn’t reject her. Renouncing being a Shieldmaiden she happily stays home as a Healer in Rohan. At the Battle of the Pelennor the invulnerable Witch King kills everyone on the field. Only when he invades The Houses of Healing is he defeated when Ioreth drops a bedpan on his head. By then all the Fellowship is dead. (Reset scenario.)
10. At the victory feast at Minas Tirith Boromir is instantly taken by the Ring and gets all grabby, forcing Frodo and Sam to flee the city. Luckily Gollum has been following them all this time and reveals himself, offering to take them into Mordor by the secret way of the Morgul Pass.
And so it goes.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jan 25, 8:51pm)
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jan 25, 9:16pm
Post #9 of 20
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All very likely scenarios, yesssss
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11. At once Frodo thought of Faramir, for these men were like him...The tall green man laughed grimly. 'I am Boromir, Captain of Gondor...'
Frodo "loans" Boromir the Ring...
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
(This post was edited by oliphaunt on Jan 25, 9:19pm)
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jan 25, 10:24pm
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That's my very favorite Chapter!
Though I do think that the Faramir, Frodo, Sam and Gollum characters steal the spotlight from the truly fabulous one. He did not perish far from home, nor fell into a deep pit, nor the Great River. But this is a Boromir conversation, so family history must wait for a more opportune moment.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 26, 11:18am
Post #12 of 20
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Bravo! It takes them some time, but they do get there in the end... 
I thought the inclusion of Slash, as a fiction-writer rather than a guitarist was a novel and intriguing idea.
I had not previosuly imagined the Ents as Guns' n 'Roses fans. 
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jan 26, 10:27pm
Post #13 of 20
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What If Faramir Never Showed Up?
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Since Faramir didn't show up until the Company had passed even beyond Amon Hen, sending him to Rivendell would have been a significant rewrite.
A more likely scenario would be 'What if Faramir Didn't Exist?'
Presumably, Boromir's story would be largely unchanged, with only the elimination of Faramir sharing the prophetic dream and big-brother Boromir attempting the journey to protect little-brother Faramir.
In the Boromir 1/5 discussion, some faulted Boromir for making the journey instead of Faramir. On the other hand, this protectiveness can be seen as a virtue as well, one which he extends to the Hobbits.
Faramir's multiple experiences of the prophetic dream would have been eliminated, which would have strengthened Boromir's connection to the mystical. His later comment "I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy" would have fit this version of Boromir. Maybe not so well his suspicion of Lothlorien? Would we view Boromir differently if he appeared a bit more mystical as well as martial?
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
(This post was edited by oliphaunt on Jan 26, 10:28pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 27, 2:32pm
Post #14 of 20
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Then why does Tolkien send Boromir? Maybe simply that Boromir's fall is the one thing which shows us, your modest human reader, what the true power of the Ring is. Faramir resists. Boromir cannot, and thus we, less mighty men than Boromir, know it's really something not to be trifled with. Maybe he's our reflection in the story. I'm going to end up agreeing with this - sorta.
But it made me think of something, which I hope means that I can take an interesting 'scenic' route towards agreement.
What follows is an observation about Tolkien's writing in LOTR. It will look like a criticism (in the sense of complaint) for a while, but should improve as it goes.
I feel that I have little trouble assigning personality and motives to many of Tolkien's characters. And in a way this is odd.
- One is a potentially immortal being that has spent nearly three thousand years liviing in a forest and singing songs. He does not need to sleep and can run lightly on snow.
- Another has spent more than one hundred years living mostly in an underground city.
- Yet another is a sort of talking, walking tree.
In the hands of another author, it would not seem strange if such creatures were inaccessibly inscrutable aliens, and not Legolas, Gimli and Treebeard. One could argue that such different lives, and lifestyles and the cultures that would arise from them would be far more peculiar (from our readers' perspective) than what Tolkien writes. In that sort of book, presumably only the perspective of Men would make much sense.
Or, if you prefer, Tolkien or an earlier editor must presumably have edited out a lot of hobbity wonder at the extrordianry ways of The Big People (perhaps because it would have made little sense to an audience of the Big People).
This observation works for Tolkien's characters more generally - I can feel the personality and assess th motives of Smaug or Feanor or Tom Bombadil; or the orcs whose talk we hear in LOTR. I can do this even though I am to understand that they are meant to be very different beings to me, or to anybody I could ever meet (and that this does not seem unnatural unless I really stare at the fridge).
We have to go to characters such as Old Man Willow or the Barrow Wight, Shelob or Caradhras before the strangeness swamps a sense of character and personailty. And in those cases we're left with a monster to be avoided, escaped or killed, so we don't need to understand how they view the world or why that involves killing (or similar) the hobbits.
This isn't a complaint about the story because I don't think Tolkien is trying to write stories about incomprehensible aliens and making a botch of it.
What Tolkien choses to emphasise is not the differences between The Free Peoples (or "The Talking Peoples", to cast the net a bit wider).
Instead, he is interested in their common humanity.
I think that might reflect his worldviews. I am sure it reflects that he is writing stories about motives.
[LOTR is] a story which, as you so rightly say, is largely about motives (choice, temptations etc) and the intentions for using whatever is found in the world
Letter 155, to Naomi Mitchison
[AND]
I fear you may be right that the search for the sources of The Lord of the Rings is going to occupy academics for a generation or two. I wish this need not be so. To my mind it is the particular use in a particular situation of any motive, whether invented, deliberately borrowed, or unconsciously remembered that is the most interesting thing to consider.
Letter 337 to ‘Mr Wrigley’ 25 May 1972
And effect of this is that members of the Fellowship of different Races don't read to me a lot like aliens: they read like different kinds of humans I might meet (or have met). I don't know whether f Elves, Dwarves, hobbits and so on were deliberately written to represent distinct aspects of human perssonality and aspiration. But the effect it has on me a sa reader is the same as if they were.
This isn't a very novel idea for this forum - we've discussed the idea that Dwarves (and elves etc.) are like aspects of human personality here for example. And a squire describes the outcome of it like this:
I see two ways to look at Men in these stories
One is that Men represent us, the modern readers, experiencing a world of supernatural, magical, or enchanted sentient races. They are the visitors to Tolkien's famous 'Faerie', land of the fairies aka elves and the rest of the gang from ancient myth, romance, and folk-tale.
The other is that Men are just one aspect of the human spirit and sensibility, the more domestic or mundane one, and that the other races of the Free Peoples can be read as being other aspects of humanity, embodied in coherent and distinct 'races': Elves for the aesthetic or spiritual, Dwarves for the earthy and technical, Ents for the natural and animalistic, and Hobbits for the childlike and innocent (as for orcs and trolls - insert your best characterization here).
It is notable that all these people can communicate freely, conduct trade and intercourse, and even, in select cases mate and bear fertile children. From their dialogue and self-presentation, it's hard not to conclude that they are not all equally "human" - that is, that they are not all "Men". So Man, the Mannish race in Tolkien, becomes simply an aspect of humanity, and not even the aspect that the author expects us to identify with. Most readers, I find, adopt the hobbits as their alter egos in Middle-earth, with that 'innocence and childishness' (above) being most equivalent to our feelings should we ever be thrust into the world of Faerie (see interpretation #1 at the top).
squire here
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Eledhwen
Forum Admin
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Jan 27, 3:58pm
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There is something relatable about all the men/dwarves/hobbits/elves/wizards/dragons we're introduced to (plus the oddities like Tom Bombadil and the Pukel-men). The Fellowship ultimately succeeds - despite being broken - because the various races can find common ground. They're more alike than they are different.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jan 27, 5:11pm
Post #16 of 20
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I've always experienced Tolkien. Exactly.
Wonderful post! Thank you.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jan 27, 5:18pm
Post #17 of 20
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10. The ultimate reset, or Fate Wins at Last.
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Ioreth was always going to save the day. 
And you're right, absolutely everything goes wrong without Boromir!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 30, 3:56pm
Post #18 of 20
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"WIII" What If Ioreth Instead? ;) //
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~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jan 30, 4:27pm
Post #19 of 20
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into an abject surrender!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 30, 7:44pm
Post #20 of 20
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- The Council of Elrond goes on a very long time.
- A small party slips out and goes dierectly to Mordor, because suffering there would be preferable to an interminable committee meeting.
- Convinced that the Ring is at Rivendell, Saruman launches an all-out attack on it.
- Convinced that Saruman is about to get the Ring from Rivendell, Sauron launches an all-out attack on Orthanc.
- Arriving at Rivedell, the Uruks are supposed to put everyone to the sword, but are instead detained by a long anecdote about Ioreth's cousin.
- Meanwhile the Ring is quietly and simply dropped in Mount Doom.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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