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JWPlatt
Grey Havens
May 21 2013, 1:27pm
Post #151 of 159
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There were two editions of the Return of the King film - The theatrical release, which you do not reference, and the Extended Edition, which you do reference, regardless of the book. I would definitely not go so far as to say that the book represents the theatrical release any more than the Extended Edition.
(This post was edited by JWPlatt on May 21 2013, 1:31pm)
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
May 21 2013, 10:14pm
Post #152 of 159
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Gandalf the White is NEVER bested by The Witch King. That is erroneous, heretical Jackson apocrypha, and
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thank Eru it only ever ended up in the extended, not the Theatrical screened version. That is not the version people saw in the theater, and only super fans, for the most part, spent the extra and bought the extendeds months after the original release. Most of those super fans should no better anyway.
Gandalf proclaimed himself mightier than The Nine in TTT, the Balrog is understood and commented on by Tolkien and other scholars on Tolkien to have been more powerful than any of The Nine, as only makes sense when comparing the Demon Lietenants of Melkor to the human phantom lieutenants of Sauron. Aragorn also commented on Gandalf. "The Dark Lord has Nine, but we have one, mightier than they. The White Rider."
I agree with much of the rest of your statement HOWEVER, and this is ESSENTIAL, the Balrog defeated by Glorfindel was NOT a Balrog as Tolkien later came to understand them. The Fall of Gondolin was a draft NEVER revised since its first writing in 1917 through 1920, when Tolkien did not know that Balrogs were actually powerful corrupted Ainur, nor that Galadriel's father was named Finarfin and her brother Finrod Felagund, nor that Sauron was the Lord of Werewolves not of cats. Tolkien had what turned out to be a misconception of Balrogs as far less powerful, more easily destroyed, and more numerous, when the original Glorindel and Ecthellion battles were written. But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him [GANDALF] the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.
I did find this so .... as Cirdan was reputed to have the greatest foresight of any Elf even surpassing Galadriel .... BUT, did it mean wht he was at the time or what he would become as Gandalf the White? Old Gandy was bested by Saruman initially and later ...post-Clorox ... he easily whipped Sharkeys tail twice (once soundly from afar ... freeing Theoden and breaking Sharkeys staff)
In the ROTK film Gandy the White is "bested" by the Witch King at one point.
I do not recall that from the book and it was written that Denethors madness and attempt to burn Faramir drew Gandy off by supposedly Saurons influence over him thru his Palantir use. Thus, Gandy had to choose between confronting the chief of the 9 and saving Theoden possibly or saving Faramir .... thats how I read it at least.
So as the White it seems by inference he was at least in the books a match if not superior to the Witch King. As the Grey he defeated them and drove them off but was unable to destroy them at Weathertop.
Glorfindel killed the Balrog almost outright and only the fall killed him and would have lived without the fall... his Balrog died before they hit bottom.
It took Gandy 10 days to kill his and he grappeled with the Balrog who could fly presumably as they had wings thus both survived the fall into the water.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
May 21 2013, 10:18pm
Post #153 of 159
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In the ROTK film Gandy the White is "bested" by the Witch King at one point. An abomination. I believe it was only included in the Extended Edition and so only quasi-canon and largely dismissable.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Yngwulff
Gondor
May 23 2013, 6:13am
Post #154 of 159
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You guys are nuts and missing the whole point
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You are missing the whole point arguing about EE ect, I put that in the to make a point, which was .....
Gandalf the White contrary to the EE ( is that better ? ) basically was left in a conundrum by the Nine, Sauron and the Witch King through diversion. Gandalf was diverted from helping in the battle to save Faramir from a Palantir/Sauron maddned Denethor. Unknown to Gandalf was the danger to Theoden, but certainly he knew bad things would ensue without his assistance, just not specifically what exactly. Gandy would hve bested him, but then Glorfindels prophecy regarding the Witch King may not have been fullfilled and Faramir would have died.
Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!
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dik-dik
Lorien
May 23 2013, 9:15pm
Post #155 of 159
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Gandy would hve bested him, but then Glorfindels prophecy regarding the Witch King may not have been fullfilled and Faramir would have died.
I privately believe Gandalf would have won as well; but how would his defeat of the Witch King thwart the prophecy? You mean that Gandalf wouldn't kill the Witch King and would merely drive him away?
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
(This post was edited by dik-dik on May 23 2013, 9:15pm)
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Yngwulff
Gondor
May 24 2013, 3:39am
Post #156 of 159
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Glorfindels prophecy said that 'not by the hand of a man would the Witch King fall' ...
Gandy is technically a man and Eowyn a woman killed him
Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
May 24 2013, 4:57am
Post #157 of 159
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If uber technicality is brought in, it would be fair to say Gandalf is not a man, but a male Spirit wearing the shape of a man.
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I get your meaning however. Also, if Glorfindel's prophecy was the result of a vision, only one scenario would do, even if it is not specified. Glorfindels prophecy said that 'not by the hand of a man would the Witch King fall' ...
Gandy is technically a man and Eowyn a woman killed him
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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dik-dik
Lorien
May 24 2013, 8:50am
Post #158 of 159
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yes, that was my reading as well.
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I took the prophecy as ambiguous, referring to either a mortal or a male.
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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Na Vedui
Rohan
May 25 2013, 1:27am
Post #159 of 159
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It's very ambiguous indeed! On the "Henneth Annun" stories website, there's a funny short piece called "No Living Man" by Elana that sums it up nicely.
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