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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 20, 10:07pm
Post #1 of 21
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Highly surprising new letter from Tolkien
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This is so shocking that I was tempted to check the calendar and make sure that it wasn't actually April 1. In a typed letter signed by Tolkien (and with handwritten notes from him) being auctioned off by Christies, Tolkien confirmed that the "walking Elms" seen outside the Shire by Sam's cousin were Ents (not Entwives) sent by Gandalf to watch over the Shire.
Typed letter signed ('J.R.R. Tolkien') to Jenny Hall, 76 Sandfield Road, Headington, 28 February 1966.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 21, 12:01am
Post #2 of 21
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wow! very surprised ents and not entwives
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wow! very surprised ents and not entwives.
what a find!
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Silvered-glass
Rohan
Jun 21, 12:19am
Post #3 of 21
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I'm kind of wondering whether it has become economical to forge "authentic" Tolkien letters, especially ones with explosive lore content.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 21, 12:21am
Post #4 of 21
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"As can be gathered from Treebeard's conversations with M. and P., he knew a lot more about events than they guessed, and more about hobbits than he pretended to"
This is the same Treebeard who was so confused by hobbits that he made a big fuss about adding them to the old songs about sentient creatures that they were missing from? And he repeatedly asked them if they had seen Entwives around the Shire-adjacent lands, when he had Ents patrolling those lands???
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 21, 12:22am
Post #5 of 21
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I keep saying, "It's Christie's, they're experts at dealing with forgeries, but still..."
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 21, 12:57am
Post #6 of 21
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I feel a bit silly now for insisting for years now that Cousin Halfast had most likely spotted a troll, ogre or giant rather than a literal "Tree-man". I'm sorry I doubted you, Hal!
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Jenny Blake Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 21, 1:04am)
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GreenHillFox
Bree
Jun 21, 10:22am
Post #7 of 21
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The content of it seems indeed too absurd to be genuiine...! 
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Sun, 1:23pm
Post #8 of 21
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He is also the same Treebeard who ...
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... pretended that the did not know that Gandalf was still alive, but he full well did know that.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Sun, 4:55pm
Post #9 of 21
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It is of course the best possible punchline to nobody in Hobbinton wanting to believe Sam's account of what Hal saw.
(Assuming it is all genuine and so on) I wonder at what point Tolkien decided this was what Hal saw? When he was revising Book I? I think that when this passage was first drafted Tolkien had vague ideas about 'tree men' but ents as we were to come to know them had yet to be made up. Therefore at the point Tolkien first wrote this bit down, Hal couldn't have seen an ent because ents didn't exist yet.
Or much later (maybe even, he decided this in response to that particular bit of fan mail asking about this loose end)?
My reading of Treebeard is that he would be entirely capable of not happening to mention what he knew about hobbits, all the better to check who M&P were and to get information from them. I think book-Treebeard is very cautious but very canny. The PJ movie simplified things by making him a silly old fool who needs M&P to make him see how the outside world is, but that didn't work for me. My reading has always been that he knows a lot about what is going on, but the problem is whether to do anything about it.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Sun, 7:31pm
Post #10 of 21
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Tolkien's handwriting is very distinctive
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As surprising as the content is, I have little doubt as to the authenticity of the letter, and there does not appear to be any questions being raised among those who would know (e.g., the Tolkien collector's community, and the Tolkien scholarship community).
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Sun, 11:39pm
Post #11 of 21
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to me to be one of those cases where he "knew his audience". In any case, even if JRRT changed his mind later, or just forgot as he got older, it does not jibe with Treebeard thinking M & P were just small Orcs and almost treading on them, or having to have their existence explained to him.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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Silvered-glass
Rohan
Tue, 8:32pm
Post #12 of 21
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The possibility of forging handwriting is a well-attested historical fact
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So we would need a skilled forger who has a sample of Tolkien's handwriting and knowledge of unsolved mysteries that are of interest to the fandom. The auctioning of that previous letter provides a proof of potential financial gain to be made. The forger claiming to have found the letter in the old papers of a dead relative who had presumably received it through mail directly from Tolkien himself would be chain of custody enough.
What strikes me about the letter is how it appears to have been planned in a way to make it particularly enticing for fans while still being short enough to minimize the difficult task of writing like Tolkien - a task in which I feel like the letter isn't entirely successful. Tolkien never in his published letters revealed plot secrets in the manner the new letter does or pretends to do.
Also, the idea that the mysterious walkers were Ents keeping an eye on the Shire because they had been requested to do so by Gandalf runs into numerous issues including ones not mentioned by the previous posters. We would probably need to treat the Ents as a sort of supplemental Rangers interested in preventing border incursions by goblins or the Lossoth rather than anything to do with the actual plot of the novel.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Wed, 12:20am
Post #13 of 21
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I'm sure it's a government effort to destabilize the credibility of the Tolkien fanbase ahead of the upcoming move.
Is there nothing good and true in this world, Mr. Glass, worth believing in?
I'm a pretty darned good cynicist, and even I won't fall for this particular theory.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Wed, 4:03am
Post #14 of 21
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Yeah, the tone is so different from anything in Letters
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It's so to the point and without his more flowery or meditative language. And it seems awfully convenient that it's on a Top 10 fan question, never before solved, and not about the origin of athelas or other non-top-charts questions that he still enjoyed answering.
Stay tuned, and we may get a long-lost letter explaining "Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are obviously the missing Blue Wizards." Handwriting added for authenticity: "That's why Gandalf went to visit them when quest-thing over." (How many of his Letters even had handwriting in them with substantial points like that???)
Letter 9 partly put here, showing how he loved phrases set off by commas & parentheses, plus his tone, and that mix of humility and authority (so similar to other letters, so unlike this "new" one):
I have redrawn (as far as I am capable) one or two of the amateur illustrations of the ‘home manuscript’, conceiving that they might serve as endpapers, frontispiece or what not. I think on the whole such things, if they were better, might be an improvement. But it may be impossible at this stage, and in any case they are not very good and may be technically unsuitable. It would be kind if you would return the rejected.
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GreenHillFox
Bree
Wed, 12:08pm
Post #15 of 21
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I am with Glass on this one, at least...
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As Gandalf said: "I do not like the smell of the left-hand way: there is foul air down there"...
If this item is listed at 5000-7000GBP, it won't be my money!
A fox must trust its nose! 
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Wed, 5:28pm
Post #16 of 21
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Tolkien collectors who have examined thousands of items and identified many of them as fake are convinced that it is real, and that is plenty good enough for me. I understand and share the surprise at the content of the letter, but there is simply no evidence to support the hypothesis that it is a forgery, and I think some people are failing to comprehend just how difficult it would be to successfully deceive an organization like Christie's that goes to great steps to authenticate items before putting it for sale. Would it be theoretically possible to fool them? Sure; anything is possible. But the likelihood is so infinitesimally small that it simply is not worth considering.
In my humble opinion, of course.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
(This post was edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Wed, 5:28pm)
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Silvered-glass
Rohan
Thu, 3:51pm
Post #17 of 21
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Through a visual examination, the expert assesses whether the style and technique are consistent with the relevant artist and will look for areas such as an artist’s signature.
A Catalogue Raisonné may be available for the artist, which lists all their known works in a particular medium — this can be consulted by the expert as part of the authentication process.
1. The style of the new letter is off, and I'm not the only fan saying this.
2. The new letter purports to come from a time period from which Tolkien's outgoing correspondence survives. Yet the published collection of Tolkien's letters has no version of this letter. Maybe a particular letter got lost on Tolkien's end somehow, but what are the odds this happened to a rare lore-relevant letter that was additionally preserved elsewhere?
Additionally, a lot of the technical examinations meant for old paintings just aren't relevant here. There are no underpaintings to discover, and no tree rings either. The forger likely would have used a real old typewriter along with an authentic type of letter paper. Carbon dating is destructive in nature and so wouldn't have been performed.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Thu, 6:32pm
Post #18 of 21
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You are free to believe whatever you want to believe
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No matter how untethered to reality.
I checked in with the folks at the TolkienGuide, the preeminent site for Tolkien collectors, and they are unanimous that there is zero question about the validity of this letter. As one of them wrote, "The collectors on this forum know a lot about Tolkien letters and signatures, and they are quick to contact auction houses if any material appears even remotely suspect." The TolkienGuide also keeps an award-winning Guide to every letter to, from or about Tolkien that is known, whether published or unpublished. The folks there know a lot more about Tolkien's letters than I do, and to be honest, I know quite a bit.
Moreover, the provenance of this letter was very easy for Christies to verify, because it was put up for sale by the recipient herself. The head of the TolkienGuide (who goes by Trotter), shared a blog post with some very helpful details about who Jenny Hall is.
What do we know about Jenny? She seems to have been one of the older pupils at Howe Dell Primary School in Old Rectory Drive, Hatfield. On a community website (Our Hatfield) Jenny’s brother Bob wrote this on the page about the school: “My two younger sisters and I all went to Howe Dell in the 1960s although I was only there for two years before moving on to Hatfield School. We were Bob, Jenny and Kitty Hall and we lived at 15, Hillcrest.” So the percipient Jenny seems to have under eleven when she wrote to the author with her pertinent questions about place name inspirations, and about whether the “walking elms” in ‘The Fellowship of the Ring’ were entwives.
The author of that blog, Chris Lovegrove, helpfully links to the Howe Dell Primary School site where Jenny Hall's brother's comment can be found
The fact that it was a letter to a child younger than 11 would help explain why the letter is more short and to the point than some of Tolkien's other letters. And it removes any doubt as to the likelihood that the recipient was still alive and available to be the source of the sale: if she was under 11 in 1966, she would only be around 70 years old now.
In short, the likelihood that this letter is fake is somewhat less than the likelihood that Gandalf was actually Saruman all along. Which is to say, not likely at all.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Lissuin
Valinor
Thu, 10:37pm
Post #19 of 21
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Nice work, as always.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
2:17am
Post #20 of 21
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+1
But you do know, yes?, that the latter portion of this sentence of yours will be twisted and picked up by a conspiratorial AI to go viral worldwide as the latest "fact:"
In short, the likelihood that this letter is fake is somewhat less than the likelihood that Gandalf was actually Saruman all along.
Yes, I'm aware of the irony of pointing it out.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
4:12am
Post #21 of 21
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Praise of the praiseworthy is above all rewards!
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I greatly appreciate your kind words. But in this case really all I did was consult with those who know more than I do.
Which is often the best path forward!
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Voronwë_the_Faithful!
[