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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 15, 9:09pm
Post #1 of 36
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has anyone heard of this course? is anyone taking this course?
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https://medievalstudies.thinkific.com/courses/tolkien
is anyone taking this course? has anyone heard of this course?
i found out after the course started, and emailed the email address provided, but have not received an answer thus far.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 15, 9:55pm
Post #2 of 36
(8049 views)
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The instructor doesn't seem to have much history with Tolkien scholarship, though maybe that is a good thing to get a different perspective. However, her works such as Torture and Brutality in Medieval Literature (2012) and the edited collections Heads Will Roll with Jeff Massey (2012), Castration and Culture in the Middle Ages (2013), Wounds and Wound Repair in Medieval Culture, with Kelly DeVries (2015), Flaying in the Premodern World (2017), Medieval and Early Modern Murder (2018) and Treason (2019) don't sound very uplifting.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 15, 10:18pm
Post #3 of 36
(8045 views)
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maybe she can add perspective from morgoth's, shelob's, and sauron's points of view?
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c
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 15, 10:24pm
Post #4 of 36
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maybe she can add perspective from morgoth's, shelob's, and sauron's points of view?
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(apologies for the double-post -- i accidentally erased my original post when i hit "post reply")
yipes. those titles. i hadn't seen those prior to your highlighting them.
this CV might add real understanding of morgoth ("torture and brutality"), shelob ("wounds and wound repair"), gothmog ("flaying"), sauron ("murder"), and saruman ("treason").
cheers : )
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 16, 1:40am
Post #5 of 36
(8039 views)
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Or perhaps Beorn, who is the only "good" character who engages in torture.
Honestly, the descriptions of the classes do look very interesting, and don't seem to focus on the types of things that her previous publications seems to suggest. I'd be interested to hear more about what she has to say, if you do get into the class.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 16, 5:01pm
Post #6 of 36
(8023 views)
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I'm sure that prof has a "Bunnies and Daisies Kiss by Cute Ponies" just lurking in her
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I seriously thought you were joking with that list, those are the sort of titles I'd invent as a joke.
But she has a point that LOTR created a few generations of sissies with all that kindness and virtue nonsense, and it's time to toughen up again. Bring on Vivisection Made Fun the Medieval French Way and Get Your Friends Drunk and Be Your Own Dr. Frankenstein.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 16, 5:03pm
Post #7 of 36
(8023 views)
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So sorry. But for the record, Gandalf admits to Frodo that he "put the fear of fire on him [Gollum]", which always says "torture" to me.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 16, 5:04pm
Post #8 of 36
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I know Morgoth did lots of heinous torture stuff, but did he do enough?? //
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 16, 5:17pm
Post #9 of 36
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That statement is vague enough that it is subject to interpretation, but in my head canon, I take it to mean that Gandalf threatened Gollum at most, not that he actually physically tortured him. But other interpretations are just as valid.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 16, 11:40pm
Post #10 of 36
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cg, you crack me the heck up. : )
a nice string of posts from you that provided genuine lols.
yes, after voronwe pointed out her CV, i went back to the site. good golly. they sound like morbid humor courses or courses for someone who perhaps should not be teaching... humans?
of course, there certainly was a lot of violence in the medieval era. but those course titles almost seem to celebrate it.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 16, 11:45pm
Post #11 of 36
(8008 views)
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gandalf / gollum and the fear of fire
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even if it was only the fear of fire, and not actual flame -- it seems rather... harsh and surprising for gandalf. but still believable.
how do we like that in our heroes? he's not a lowly edain, or even an elf. he's a mighty maia. do we expect more of him? or does he get special dispensation because he's so lofty and his mission so important?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 17, 3:47pm
Post #12 of 36
(7994 views)
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And I expect better from Gandalf than the "well, desperate times require desperate measures." But I don't think it's a "cancel Gandalf" moment, because he didn't do it routinely, and he was morally upright 99% of the time. I view it more as an author's narrative device that deepens the tension of the milieu.
But I like to call a spade a spade, and it's not something I forget: I find it disturbing. All the same, I don't consider myself evil, and I've done things I consider immoral, so I get it too. (And no, a list of my immoral acts is not available in PDF form, but thanks for asking.) 
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 17, 3:53pm
Post #13 of 36
(7992 views)
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Or perhaps Beorn, who is the only "good" character who engages in torture.
Honestly, the descriptions of the classes do look very interesting, and don't seem to focus on the types of things that her previous publications seems to suggest. I'd be interested to hear more about what she has to say, if you do get into the class.
so far, no response.
and after reading that CV, i'm rather happy about that. (seriously.)
beorn -- can you remind me what actions he did that you would pop in the torture category?
cheers : )
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 17, 4:00pm
Post #14 of 36
(7990 views)
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And I expect better from Gandalf than the "well, desperate times require desperate measures." But I don't think it's a "cancel Gandalf" moment, because he didn't do it routinely, and he was morally upright 99% of the time. I view it more as an author's narrative device that deepens the tension of the milieu. But I like to call a spade a spade, and it's not something I forget: I find it disturbing. All the same, I don't consider myself evil, and I've done things I consider immoral, so I get it too. (And no, a list of my immoral acts is not available in PDF form, but thanks for asking.)
agreed on so many points, cg. that statement by gandalf just popped off the page for me, and i was a bit appalled. tolkien's christianity was very important to him, and he was so thoughtful and meticulous in writing and working out his characters and histories. i would be very, very curious to ask him about this particular line, and what it meant for the character.
is the torture of gollum something that would be a black mark against him with the valar? with eru? the maiar, wizards were certainly not perfect beings. did tolkien mean for us to examine gandalf more closely, using this line? was he suggesting that we should not idolize our heroes (especially the very powerful, which is so tempting to us mortals)?
it was gandalf the grey that did these acts. would gandalf the white have done them?
so many very interesting questions -- and thank you to all here for examining these issues in such depth. like always, it's making me think more upon the texts i know reasonably well. : )
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 17, 6:33pm
Post #15 of 36
(7988 views)
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Here is the passage that I am referring to:
He had been over the river and right back up into the mountains-from which you can guess that he could travel quickly, in bear's shape at any rate. From the burnt wolf-glade he had soon found out that part of their story was true; but he had found more than that: he had caught a Warg and a goblin wandering in the woods. From these he had got news: the goblin patrols were still hunting with Wargs for the dwarves, and they were fiercely angry because of the death of the Great Goblin, and also because of the burning of the chief wolf's nose and the death from the wizard's fire of many of his chief servants. So much they told him when he forced them, but he guessed there was more wickedness than this afoot, and that a great raid of the whole goblin army with their wolf-allies into the lands shadowed by the mountains might soon be made to find the dwarves, or to take vengeance on the men and creatures that lived there, and who they thought must be sheltering them.
"It was a good story, that of yours," said Beorn, "but I like it still better now I am sure it is true. You must forgive my not taking your word. If you lived near the edge of Mirkwood, you would take the word of no one that you did not know as well as your brother or better. As it is, I can only say that I have hurried home as fast as I could to see that you were safe, and to offer you any help that I can. I shall think more kindly of dwarves after this. Killed the Great Goblin, killed the Great Goblin!" he chuckled fiercely to himself.
"What did you do with the goblin and the Warg?" asked Bilbo suddenly.
"Come and see!" said Beorn, and they followed round the house. A goblin's head was stuck outside the gate and a warg-skin was nailed to a tree just beyond. Beorn was a fierce enemy.
Regarding Gandalf and his treatment of Gollum, I agree with both of you, but I will add some context. In looking at the history of the writing of LOTR, it doesn't seem possible to tell exactly what point the story of Gandalf putting the fear of fire on Gollum arose, but I suspect it was early on, when Gandalf was still perceived by Tolkien as the Merlin-like figure -- a more-or-less human wizard and somewhat of a trickster -- that he was in The Hobbit, and not the angelic Istar that he would eventually morph into. Just as Beorn's harsh treatment of his Goblin and Warg prisoners in The Hobbit contrasts with the actions of the "good guys" in LOTR, I would argue that Gandalf's harsh treatment of Gollum is a remnant of the early writing of LOTR when it was more in tune with the earlier book.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 18, 2:46am
Post #16 of 36
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Thanks for that background on Gandalf's evolution
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Curious (not me!) liked to point out when we discussed The Hobbit that even in that book, Gandalf was a trickster early on (the party at Bilbo's, the 3 trolls, the Misty Mtn goblins, right up to arriving at Beorn's), then became more of an enlightened statesman at Erebor and the Battle of the Five Armies (and after). So even then, Tolkien either saw him as rather complex, or changing to fit different narrative needs, or both.
After many re-reads of LOTR, I actually like that Gandalf is a little flawed here and there, because if he were too saintly and virtuous, he'd feel a little unreal to me given his Big Picture, Mover & Shaker role.
But I like Maciliel's question: when he returned to Valinor after Sauron's defeat, did he have any confessing to do? One wonders. I don't think it would be adversarial and he'd be on trial, but I wonder if Varda ever said, "What were you thinking when you...?"
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 18, 3:03am
Post #17 of 36
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What would Gandalf do?
So glad you asked this and phrased it this way, Mac:
did tolkien mean for us to examine gandalf more closely, using this line? It has my brain churning and churning, just pondering away. I can't prove it textually, but my gut instinct says "Maybe he intended us to examine ourselves, and his characters, more closely with this situation. What would I do if I were Gandalf, I had Gollum to interrogate, and there was a real risk of Sauron taking over the world unless I beat him first?"
And the reason I think that is overall, I feel like that's a subtext across Letters: he does question himself at times, and questions others, and can be morally certain, and morally unsure. And then I think of the arcs especially of Frodo and Sam, both in general but also specifically how they felt toward Gollum. Frodo went from "What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature" to "For now that I see him, I do pity him." Sam notably spared Gollum on Mt Doom after his attack on them, when "any reasonable character" would have killed Gollum.
So, it's hard to say how conscious it was, but I'm inclined to think Tolkien did want readers to notice Gandalf putting the fear of fire on Gollum was worth a moment to stop and ponder the ethics of the situation, and then move along with the story. Just my 2 cents. Thanks again for bringing it up.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 18, 2:26pm
Post #18 of 36
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Maybe it's _essential_ for Gandalf to be less than perfect
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...aside from a too-perfect character just being irritating, that is.
Maybe readers need to odd nudge to consider why Gandalf was wise not to have taken the Ring when Frodo offered it to him.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 18, 5:44pm
Post #19 of 36
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Manwë himself is portrayed as a downright simpleton at times, with a blind spot as vast as the Helcaraxë and as deep as the Abyss beneath the Bridge of Khazad-dûm. There is only One perfect being in Tolkien's secondary universe, and even that is debatable.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 18, 6:25pm
Post #20 of 36
(7956 views)
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I think the focus was on moral perfection rather than character perfection, and Tolkien's author motivations behind moral imperfections:
- He made someone (morally) imperfect for the plot to work?
- He made people imperfect by accident?
- He made characters imperfect to make a thematic/philosophical/ethical point?
- He introduced moral imperfections as part of world-building?
- Other?
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 18, 7:49pm
Post #22 of 36
(7964 views)
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btw -- i just heard back from the course gate-keepers
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btw -- i just heard back from the course gate-keepers... the course is closed (capped at 30 people).
but our discussion is so much more interesting!!! : )
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 18, 9:12pm
Post #23 of 36
(7958 views)
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It'll give you more time to ready my paper! 
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 18, 9:40pm
Post #24 of 36
(7957 views)
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i am +definitely+ reading your paper : )
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i am +definitely+ reading your paper. : )
this place is such a blessing. not only folks who love tolkien, but folks compelled to discuss his works with such such meticulousness, insight, and intelligence.
i truly feel blessed in being able to interact in this forum.
thank you, voronwe, and all the reading room denizens. : )
(just seeing everyone's names and avatars from a long absence is so comforting, and happiness-making : ) )
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 18, 9:46pm
Post #25 of 36
(7951 views)
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Happy to have you here as well! //
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'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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