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Kimi
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Mon, 12:28am
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Plucky lads and deeds of valour.
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In the context of recent discussion about the possibility of some more contemporary/less "literary" elements in JRRT's reading, I recalled a piece I posted long ago (it pre-dates these boards, so must be 20-ish years old at least), and wonder-of-wonders found I'd saved a copy. Just a bit of light-hearted speculation. -- Mr Kimi has some wonderful old books that belonged to his father as a boy. These books are utterly English tales of derring-do and brave lads who win out against various bad lots. They make good light reading at bedtime, and recently Mr Kimi has noticed a couple of story elements that rather leapt off the page at him. Here are some excerpts: From Chums 1931-32 Dedication: "To the Boys of the Empire upon which the Sun never sets." Story: "The Yellow Idol" A boy named Terry has been hit on the head and captured by a gang of ruffians.
Terry's head felt as though it had been split from top to bottom. He opened his eyes, and immediately felt sick.... Everything whirled before his eyes, and he closed them.... A hand was laid roughly on his jaw. 'Here, drink this. It'll do you good....' Terry's teeth were forced apart. He had neither the strength nor the will to resist the man, who thrust a cup against his lips.... Now he began to feel better. What it was they gave him he did not know, but his heartbeats strengthened and steadied, and the nausea began to pass. It left him at last. His head did not ache so much. The powerful stimulant had got rapidly to work. Story: "Barracouda" A boy who is fleeing from his enemies escapes into a tunnel. He follows it for a long time, then finds himself in a cave full of treasure. A strange creature comes towards him:
Like some spectral thing he came from the shadows... I looked into that lined and wizened face.... matted white eyebrows almost concealed a pair of old eyes that blinked strangely at me.... I bethought me of my two knives, for he was looking askance at them.... The newcomer was so old... he looked as though he had lived for hundreds of years, someone condemned to exist forever as penance for an act of blasphemy.... He spoke as though always he had been accustomed to living with shadows, and the words he had uttered had been addressed to himself rather than to me. I was afterwards to learn that years of loneliness had made him confide things to himself in this manner. These books are made up of serials that were published in England in 1931-2. My father-in-law is[was - we've lost him since I wrote this] about the same age as JRRT's sons. Is it just possible that the Tolkien boys had such serials in the house, and that their father occasionally dipped into one for a bit of light reading?
The Passing of Mistress Rose My historical novels Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there? - A Room With a View
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mon, 11:57am
Post #2 of 5
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It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out on a hunt for sources
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It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out on a hunt for sources... if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to! On the one hand, I think it's very seldom that anything can be settled for good about Tolkien's sources. Unless the man himself says something was the influence, we're left trying to decide on balance of probabilities whether a similarity between this book and that one is just too close to be co-incidence. And then, further, how that non-co-incidence might have happened. All subjective stuff, where one reader may see a similarity and another may not see it. On the other hand, it is interesting sometimes to think about a human author's sources of inspiration. It can be part of an interest in how Tolkien's mind (in this case) worked. Or in how the minds of readers work. Or why this story resonates so. And of course you might think about these things as one way of improving one's own writing. There's that saying, isn't there, that you have to read a bookcase full of books to write one yourself? How exactly a similartiy came up is often part of the legal defence if an author is accused of plagarism (which as far as I know, Tolkien never was):
One of the more famous examples happened to well-known author and activist Hellen Keller. Keller, who became blind and deaf while still a baby, wrote a story when she was 12 years old entitled “The Frost King”. Later, it was discovered that her story strongly resembled a similar story by Margaret Canby’s “The Frost Fairies”. Keller insisted she had no conscious memory of ever reading Canby’s story but concedes that maybe it was read to her when she was younger and somehow she retained pieces of the plot in the back of her mind. Another example came from Alex Haley’s “Roots” published in 1976. Haley was accused of plagiarism by a man named Harold Courlander, who wrote a novel entitled “The African”. A court examined the two works and determined that the similarities between them were more than just a coincidence. Eventually Haley settled with Courlander, all the while insisting that “Roots” was his own, original creation. Famous Cases of Plagiarism - Lessons to Learn (from the website of a plagarism detection tool) I'm sure there are lots of other examples. I'm failing to remember the details or find a reference to a plagarism case in the 1980s or 1990s where one author accused another of plagarism, was counter-sued, lost his case and was forced into an apology and the acceptance that both his work and hers were seperately based upon the novel North and South by Elizabeth Gaskell. The more indirect an influence one posits, the harder it becomes to prove anything (should we feel the need to prove anything, rather than just be interested and entertained by some possibilities). Further, there is the issue of 'tropes', which his perhaps best put by TVTropes:
Tropes are just tools. Writers understand tropes and use them to control audience expectations either by using them straight or by subverting them, to convey things to the audience quickly without saying them. Human beings are natural pattern-seekers and storytellers. We make use of stories to convey truths, examine and exchange ideas, speculate on the future and discuss consequences. To do this, we must have a basis for our discussion, a new language to show us what we are looking at today. So our storytellers use tropes to let us know what things about reality we should put aside and what parts of fiction we should take up. ... If your favorite shows have long lists of tropes associated with them, well, so do everybody's. A show featuring an Action Girl or showing a character kicking the dog is not a bad thing; the former is merely a reasonable type of character (badass character who is female) and the latter is a character action that happens plenty in Real Life. Also, consider the size and/or complexity of the work. A four-part TV miniseries, 3 hour movie, or 700 page novel is going to have more tropes than a standard length work. As would very large multipart works such as a 200 episode series, 5 movie franchise, or a book trilogy. A novel with a complicated, intricate plot will also use many more tropes than a simpler story. Consider the analogy of a house: a 7-bedroom house obviously uses more materials than a two bedroom one. Constructing a floor of a building as a twisty maze uses much more materials than a floor with just a couple of corridors, etc. Tropes are the cement that holds together the words (water) and concepts (aggregate) used to create the story (concrete). There is nothing new under the sun. Including that very statement. And the book from which it comes. Completely ignoring the possibility that one's favorite show just might not be hewn from the very essence of the universe by Thor himself and placed in the periodic table under Or for "Originalium" doesn't change the fact that it wasn't. And acknowledging that it isn't should not lessen its appeal, either. Every story is influenced by what came before it — and storytellers (e.g., writers, directors, actors) are bound to show that influence, intentionally or not, in the process of telling. Just because something's been used before doesn't mean it's a Cliché; and stories often gain something by having ties to other works. That said, there certainly is such thing as too derivative, but there's a difference between playing a trope straight and utter Cliché Storm (and even those aren't necessarily bad). It's impossible to write something completely and utterly without tropes, anyway, so stop trying. TVtropes - "Tropes are tools" It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out on a hunt for sources... if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to! ...even to Chums magazine, or worse places!
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Mon, 11:59am)
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Mon, 5:31pm
Post #3 of 5
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Further light-hearted speculations
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I was interested to find out just now that Chums paper started in 1892 (as did JRR Tolkien). So my further light-hearted speculation is that it was publishing much the same type of material earlier than the 1930s. If so we could imagine, if we wish, a different and earlier-generation Tolkien boy reading it. Chums does sound like the sort of magazine that gave us "with one bound Jack was free!"
"There is a delightful story, attributed to more than one publishing house, of the serial writer who disappears in the middle of a story. As he shows no sign of turning up, it is decided to carry on without him. Unfortunately he has left his hero bound to a stake, with lions circling him, and an avalanche about to fall for good measure (or some such situation). Relays of writers try to think of a way out, and give it up. Then at the eleventh hour the missing author returns. He takes the briefest look at the previous installment and then, without a moment's hesitation, writes: 'With one bound Jack was free.'" — Boys Will Be Boys: The Story of Sweeney Todd, Deadwood Dick, Sexton Blake, Billy Bunter, Dick Barton et al., E.S. Turner (1948) (I'd heard a slightly different version, in which instead of going missing, the author is working away stuck on how to have his hero escape, and it is the tea boy (or other lowly office employee) who takes pity on him and simply writes the famous line. ) Hmm - I've heard of Sexton Blake, Billy Bunter and Dick Barton. I dare not google "Deadwood Dick"! But you have to be careful with the "with one bound Jack was free!" sort of thing:
"The bad guy stuck [Rocketman] in a car on a mountain road and knocked him out and welded the door shut and tore out the brakes and started him to his death, and he woke up and tried to steer and tried to get out, but the car went off a cliff before he could escape! And it crashed and burned, and I was so upset and excited, and the next week, you better believe I was first in line. And they always start with the end of the last week. And there was Rocketman, trying to get out, and here comes the cliff, and just before the car went off the cliff, he jumped free! And all the kids cheered! But I didn't cheer. I stood right up and started shouting, 'This isn't what happened last week! Have you all got amnesia ? They just cheated us! This isn't fair! HE DIDN'T GET OUT OF THE COCK-A-DOODIE CAR!'"— Annie Wilkes, Misery (Both my quotes sourced from https://tvtropes.org/...es/CliffhangerCopout Annie's methods of literary criticism got a bit extreme later, I hear...
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Mon, 5:36pm)
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Mon, 7:02pm
Post #4 of 5
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The 1st one eerily sounds like Pippin after his orc capture in Rohan
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right down to drinking the mystery draught, which was remarkably restorative even if of dubious origin. I'm less sure of the Gollumesque story because so many stories feature finding a queer/eccentric/odd creature in a cave. But I see the thematic similarities to Gollum. And then there's speaking by addressing himself. If he had brought up riddles and pockets, well, I'd call it "case closed." Thanks for sharing them. I think we're all a bit like Helen Keller, recombining things we've read in our minds into our own stories. (There's the whole body of Cognitive Constructive Psychology to back me up on that one.) We give things meaning internally as we process them and weave them into the tapestry of our lives, and then, of course, they seem like ours all along, don't they? Thinking just a bit further: I remain fond of Tolkien's story (or was it mine?) that when he read MacBeth, he wanted the trees to literally march in fury like an army, not just lyrically, and by golly, he did so in his own story (and recognized the source).
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Mon, 10:31pm
Post #5 of 5
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The Effect of Limited Reading Options
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In the old times there weren't as many types of entertainment available as there are now, fewer books in total had been published, and there was the trouble of having to physically find a book to read it. And only a small portion of the literature available was fantasy. Someone like Tolkien who preferred the imaginary and the distant to realistic depictions of the contemporary society would have ended up consuming all adult-oriented fantasy literature, all Icelandic sagas and medieval lays, all science fiction, etc. that was available to him, until he found himself in adulthood reading adventure stories written for literal children because at least the adventure stories had a trace of something interesting and as new releases were still unfamiliar to him. Times like that are not so far away, really. The Internet did much to change the availability of information as well as providing new distractions to stave off boredom. So yes, I find it entirely plausible that Tolkien was influenced by stories in boys' magazines that were read by his own sons, as well as contemporary weird fiction from America.
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