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Cirashala
Doriath
Sat, 8:47pm
Post #1 of 4
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Quote from Celebrimbor pisses me off- RANT
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"I was there Elrond, the night your father set sail. A mortal man who believed he could convince the very gods to come to war in our aid. I heard your mother pleading with him not to go, asking him, imploring him, why must it be him? And do you know what he said? Because he was the only one who could do it."
~Celebrimbor, #RingsOfPower
This was posted in the ROP Facebook group, and it INFURIATES ME.
THEY'RE NOT GODS!!!!!!! 😡😡😡It's the BIGGEST pet peeve of mine with people who don't understand Tolkien or his works! There's only ONE God in Middle-earth, and that's Eru Iluvatar. The Valar are like archangels, serving Eru Iluvatar by stewarding the world He created in His mind. Tolkien SPECIFICALLY created his world as a monotheistic one, mirroring his Christian faith. Melkor is akin to Satan, and Sauron is a demon in service to Melkor.
While he disliked direct allegory himself, he has said repeatedly: "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision".
That is why his world is structured the way it is- one God, His "servants of the Secret Fire" (Holy Spirit), His antithesis/fallen Angel (Melkor/Morgoth, and Sauron a demon/fallen angel who serves Melkor), the Valar (archangels), the Maiar (angels), the Istari/wizards (Maiar/specific angels), etc.
This is why Gandalf calls the balrog "A demon of the ancient world"- because it's LITERALLY a demon, one of the fallen Maiar who follow Morgoth (just like Sauron, only Sauron was the strongest/most powerful of the bunch).
One can compare the Valar to archangels, like Gabriel and others. The elves and dwarves' reverence for their chosen Valar (Elbereth/Varda, and Aule/Mahal, respectively) mirrors how Catholics will pray for intercession of the saints on their behalf.
You can deny the obvious Christian/Catholic themes within Tolkien's work all you want, but it's STILL a "Fundamentally religious and Catholic work", as stated BY THE AUTHOR HIMSELF.
Read the Ainulindale. The first part of the Silmarillion that details the creation of Arda. It's the closest treatise to Catholicism/Christianity and the closest area where Tolkien actually does draw allegory in his works. Read that, and what the Valar/Maiar ACTUALLY are, and the themes woven throughout the tales, and then tell me that it's not a "fundamentally religious and Catholic work". You CAN'T, not honestly.
If Celebrimbor actually calls the Valar gods in ROP, I will be FURIOUS. The elves, ESPECIALLY the Noldor who were IN VALINOR and spoke with the Valar directly, and they of all the denizens of Middle-earth would know BEYOND A DOUBT that the Valar are NOT GODS!
The showrunners claim to be intimately familiar with Tolkien, and yet they miss this very critical aspect of the world building? That's irritating!
I am just frustrated at how many within the fandom, even showrunners themselves, simply don't understand the world as Tolkien created it. You take out the fundamentally religious and Catholic work part of it, and you have essentially removed the VERY thing that is the fabric of the struggle of good vs evil within it, and WHY that struggle exists, and WHY the players are who they are!
It cheapens Tolkien down to the level of conjurer of cheap tricks wizardry, not the complex and rich, Catholic/Christian high fantasy that it is. That is what separates it from all the other "magic" worlds- the fact that there is a very real "magic" in the form of Eru's power, and the power that He, as the ONE GOD, has allocated to others. Saruman lost his power because he betrayed God, essentially, and Gandalf took his place, as the devout "servant of the Secret Fire".
Without the Christianity within it, that very powerful scene, and indeed the very fall of Numenor itself, is meaningless. Relegating it to the realm of Greek and Roman polytheistic, pagan mythos destroys what Tolkien's world actually is.
A fundamentally religious and Catholic work.
Tolkien, as a devout Catholic, would be rolling in his grave if he knew that those who represent his world to the rest of the real world have turned Middle-earth into a pagan pantheon.
Rant over.
My writing and novels:
My Hobbit Fanfiction
My historical novel print and kindle version
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You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.
Happy reading everyone!
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Sat, 11:19pm
Post #2 of 4
(70 views)
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So a sacrilege of the writers? Is this more a story concern or a real-world faith concern that makes this point so vehemently?
The Ainur, before condensing from the ethereal vapor into the more corporeal branches of Valar and Maiar, are arguably gods. I don't recall, for example, whether Manwe was written as making himself physically manifest or just vaguely through manipulation of the air, etc.. It's easy to classify non-corporeal entities as omnipotent gods. Close enough. And characters are allowed to be written as making mistakes like this. And maybe the characters can be made to suffer later for their lack of respect? In the story, that is. We'd need to know the writers' intent. I have little to no "faith" in the writers, but I proffer this thought that it's the character rather than the writers because I feel generous today for sake of discussion.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
3:35pm
Post #3 of 4
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Tolkien repeatedly calls them gods throughout the history of the creation of his legendarium
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So I guess if he is rolling in his grave he is doing so in response to his own words.
ETA: Here's one that I particularly like, from a fragment of The Grey Annals that was published in The Nature of Middle-earth, written after The Lord of the Rings). This is Fingolfin's challenge to Morgoth:
“Come forth, thou coward lurking lord to fight with thine own hand and sword! Thou wielder of hosts of slaves and thralls, pit-dweller, shielded by strong walls, thou foe of gods and elven-race, come forth and show thy craven face!"
Tolkien, J.R.R.; Hostetter, Carl F. The Nature Of Middle-Earth (p. 166). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
(This post was edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on 3:45pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
6:15pm
Post #4 of 4
(20 views)
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More post-LOTR references to the Valar as "Gods"
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This is just a small selection that I chose at random.
From the Ainulindale:
poesy. For poesy is the delight of Manwë, and the song of words is his music.]26 Behold, the raiment of Manwë is blue, and blue is the fire of his eyes, and his sceptre is of sapphire which the Noldor wrought for him; and he is King of the world of gods and elves and men, and the chief defence against Melkor.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 20). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
From the Annals of Aman:
feet. And as the gods watched, behold! upon the mound there sprang two green saplings, and they grew and became fair and tall, and they came to blossom.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 55). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over Kuiviénen; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the Gods, save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (pp. 74-75). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
Elves, and again it was whispered abroad that the gods purposed to reserve the kingdoms of Middle-earth for the younger and weaker race whom they might more easily sway, defrauding the Elves of the inheritance of Ilúvatar.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 95). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
Then the Gods were wroth, and they summoned Fëanor before them.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 96). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
them: ‘Behold the truth of all that I have spoken, and how you are indeed banished unjustly. And think not that the Silmarils lie safe in any treasury within the realm of the gods.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 97). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
But the gods sought in vain for tidings of their enemy, and doubt lay heavy upon their hearts what new evil he might attempt.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 97). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
‘Why, O my people,’ he cried, ‘why should we longer serve these jealous gods, who cannot keep us, nor their own realm even, secure from their Enemy?
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 111). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
coast. And Olwë called upon Ossë, but he came not; for he had been summoned to Valmar to the vigil and council of the gods; and it was not permitted by the Valar that the Flight of the Noldor should be hindered by force.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 116). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
But his sons were not with him, for they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin; and all Fingolfin’s folk went forward still, feeling the constraint of their kinship and the will of Fëanor, and fearing to face the doom of the gods, since not all of them had been guiltless of the kinslaying at Alqualondë.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 118). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
From the Later Quenta Silmarillion:
Therefore they returned and counselled the Elves to remove into the West, and the greater part of the people hearkened to their counsel. This they did of their free will, and yet were swayed by the majesty of the gods, ere their own wisdom was full grown.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 162). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
The Vanyar are the Blessed Elves, and the Spear-elves, the Elves of the Air, the friends of the Gods, the Holy Elves and the Immortal, and the Children of Ingwë; they are the Fair Folk and the White.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 164). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
enchantment. It is told that the gods would leave their business, and the birds of Valinor their mirth, that the bells of Valmar were silent and the fountains ceased to flow, when at the mingling of the lights Melian sang in Lorien.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 172). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
To these the Valar had given a land and dwelling-places. Even among the radiant flowers of the Tree-lit gardens of the gods they longed still to see the stars at times.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 175). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
imagined. In Valinor they first contrived the fashioning of gems, and they made them in countless myriads of many kinds and hues; and they filled all Elendë with them, and the halls of the gods in Valinor were enriched.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 176). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
They afterwards were great hunters in the woods of Middle-earth. A hunter also was Celegorn [> Celegorm], who in Valinor was a friend of Oromë and followed oft the great god’s horn.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 177). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
But slowly their hearts were moved, and were drawn towards the light that flowed out over the sea unto their isle; and they were torn between the love of the music of the waves upon their shores, and desire to see again their kindred and to look upon the splendour of the gods.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 178). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
As the ages passed the Lindar [> Vanyar] grew to love the land of the gods and the full light of the Trees, and they forsook the city upon Túna, and dwelt upon the mountain of Manwë, or about the plains and woods of Valinor, and became sundered from the Noldor.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 178). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
conclave. He looked then upon the bliss and glory of the Valar, and malice was in his heart; he looked upon the fair Children of Ilúvatar that sat at the feet of the gods, and hatred filled him; he looked upon the wealth of bright gems and lusted for them; but he hid his thoughts and postponed his vengeance.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 185). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
Thus, ere the gods were aware, the peace of Valinor was poisoned. The Noldor began to murmur against the Valar and their kindred; and many became filled with vanity, forgetting all that the gods had given them and taught to them.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 188). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
Melkor met Ungoliantë in Arvalin, and with her he plotted his revenge; but she demanded a great and terrible reward, ere she would dare the perils of Valinor and the power of the gods.
Tolkien, Christopher. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One: The Legends of Aman (p. 190). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
Thus it was that Men called King Felagund, whom they first met of all the Eldar, Wisdom, and after him they named his people The Wise.* Indeed they believed at first that Felagund was one of the gods, of whom they had heard rumour that they dwelt far in the West; and this was (some say) the chief cause of their journey.
Tolkien, Christopher. The War of the Jewels: The Later Silmarillion, Part Two (p. 217). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
‘We took long roads, desiring to escape the perils of Middle-earth and the dark things that dwell there; for we heard that there was Light in the West. But now we learn that the Light is beyond the Sea. Thither we cannot come where the gods dwell in bliss.
Tolkien, Christopher. The War of the Jewels: The Later Silmarillion, Part Two (p. 220). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
From the Grey Annals:
§98​But Melian said: ‘Truly for these causes they came; but for others also. Beware of the sons of Fëanor! The shadow of the wrath of the Gods lies upon them; and they have done evil, I perceive, both in Aman and to their own kin. A grief but lulled to sleep lies between the princes of the Noldor.’
Tolkien, Christopher. The War of the Jewels: The Later Silmarillion, Part Two (p. 42). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
Thus he came alone to Angband’s gate and smote upon it once again, and sounding a challenge upon his silver horn he called Morgoth himself to come forth to combat, crying: ‘Come forth, thou coward king, to fight with thine own hand! Den-dweller, wielder of thralls, liar and lurker, foe of Gods and Elves, come! For I would see thy craven face.’
Tolkien, Christopher. The War of the Jewels: The Later Silmarillion, Part Two (p. 55). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
‘If thou fearest neither spell, wall nor weapons, as thou saist, then go fetch me a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth. Then we will give jewel for jewel, but thou shalt win the fairer: Lúthien of the First-born and of the Gods.’ And those who heard knew that he would save his oath, and yet send Beren to his death.
Tolkien, Christopher. The War of the Jewels: The Later Silmarillion, Part Two (p. 65). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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