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Elthir
Hithlum
Nov 12, 9:29pm
Post #1 of 11
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That's right, Eonwe slew Morgoth at the actual Battle of Battles. The Dagor Something, I think it's called.
But of course those very imaginative (and sometimes confused) Númenóreans gave Morgoth's death blow to Túrin Turambar. . .
. . . a Man. A man who had plenty of reason to hate Morgoth of course. And how appropriate that he should avenge Men! But myths are myths; and prophecy. . . well, that's another thing in Tolkien's Middle-earth, even when it isn't from the very mouth of Mandos himself.
And Andreth's prophecy "returns" Túrin to his roots: Dragonslayer.
Admittedly there was a longish period where we had Tulkas, Eonwe (and possibly Beren?) with Túrin, and Turambar "statures up" to Morgoth at some point and delivers the death blow.
Yawn. Read that version one hundred and one times already!
But what indeed did Eonwe do? When this dire Dagor Dagorathian idea was a prophecy of Mandos himself, Tulkas "strove" (or something) with Morgoth. . . and Túrin delivered the death blow. . . and Eonwe. . . what? Was he taking notes?
Making sandwiches?
What if he was thinking of his great love for Arien, hating Morgoth for ravishing her! And now we come to it (pause for effect if you like): who was the Dragonslayer, and who the Morgothslayer?
". . . and the Sun and the Moon shall be lost. So shall it be that Eonwe herald of Manwe, of love for Arien shall in the end be Melkor's bane, and shall destroy the world to destroy his foe, and so shall all things be rolled away."
Elthir editing certain names from The Hiding of Valinor, The Book of Lost Tales
And moreover!
". . . but Turambar indeed shall stand beside Eonwe in the Great Wrack, and Melkor and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormegil."
Elthir editing certain names from Turambar and the Foalóke, The Book of Lost Tales
Note that it's the drakes that shall curse the Black Sword! Dragons! Okay Melkor too, yes. . . but don't forget:
"Fionwe's rage and grief. In the end he will slay Melkor."
JRRT, The Book of Lost Tales
So we (I) come full circle, like a dragon with its tail in its great, long jaws.
Andreth prophecy comes true, putting Túrin "back" into his role as dragonslayer, indeed slaying Morgoth's greatest dragon, Ancalagon the Black, soon to become the Black and Blue!
And those Númenóreans. . . wait. I went over that already.
Anyway, why wouldn't Eonwe (Fionwe) "still" love Arien (Urwendi)? Tilion loved her. Morgoth was drawn to her. And at least this way we can "say" what Eonwe was doing, and did, at the dreaded Dagor of Dagors.
I mean, I can say Eonwe did it!
Or maybe not!
And thus ended Elthir, tongue-in-cheek, and his strange tale fell silent in the room.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 13, 6:05pm
Post #2 of 11
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I read it as "Éowyn did it! That's right, Éowyn slew Morgoth at the actual Battle of Battles." And I thought, how the heck is he going to make that work?
Nonetheless, once I realized what you were actually saying, I greatly enjoyed reading it, though there was still a tiny nugget of regret for the missing tale of Éowyn slaying "the Elder King: Melkor, first and mightiest of the Valar, who was before the world, and made it."
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Elthir
Hithlum
Nov 13, 9:55pm
Post #3 of 11
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I must admit, I posted this here with you in mind.
It was in reaction to someone (elsewhere) posting (in a thread about Túrin and the Dagor Dagorath): "Throughout his life, Tolkien had previously produced many ideas and events and then abandoned them. But later he returned to those abandoned ideas and events."
First I said hmm and thought about this in general. . . and then I randomly thought of a couple "linguistic instances" (so to speak) that could fit this description. . . or at least "arguably" could be said to fit it.
Then I took a nap and ended up writing about Eonwe and Arien!
But now I'm saying hmm at the prospect of Éowyn slaying Morgoth! Oh yes. That needs looking into! Maybe not by me, but by someone!
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 13, 10:08pm
Post #4 of 11
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First of all I am flattered that you thought of me! 
Secondly, I've been thinking a lot recently about couples in Tolkien's legendarium - Beren and Luthien, Aragorn and Arwen, Sam and Rosie, Tuor and Idril, Andreth and Aegnor (and Finrod), and of course, Earendil and Elwing. Eonwe and Arien had escaped my attention, and now I am going to have rethinking my thinking!
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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squire
Gondolin
Nov 14, 3:19am
Post #5 of 11
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Tut tut. 'Sam and Rosie' are not a "couple" in Toklien's legendarium.
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Sam and Frodo are the relevant couple.
Rosie is an afterthought, added to give Sam a more English conventional life when Frodo implodes. But in the story, the equivalent 'couple' to Beren and Luthien, etc. for the hobbits is, basically, Sam and Frodo.
squire online:
Unfortunately my longtime internet service provider abandoned its hosting operations last year. I no longer have any online materials to share with the TORn community.
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 14, 4:00am
Post #6 of 11
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For the purposes that I mean, that is not true
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There certainly is no doubted the importance of the relationship between Frodo and Sam, but that is a different type of relationship altogether.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Fri, 12:06pm
Post #7 of 11
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Certainly it is hard to imagine Frodo succeeding in getting the Ring to the brink of destruction without Sam. Or, at least, not without such a re-writing that we're in Fan Fiction rather than the 'Fan Criticism' we do here.
So I do agree: Sam and Frodo are a key pair, team, or couple (at least according to some meanings of the word).
But Sam's relationship with Rosie?
It seems to me that your comment"Rosie is an afterthought, added to give Sam a more English conventional life when Frodo implodes." is a perfectly reasonable explanation. We further have to imagine that Tolkien didn't think it necessary to edit Rosie in to some point earlier than her first mention. Which is not until Book 6, when Sam finally loses any hope of surviving the quest:
'So that was the job I felt I had to do when I started,' thought Sam: ‘to help Mr. Frodo to the last step and then die with him? Well, if that is the job then I must do it. But I would dearly like to see Bywater again, and Rosie Cotton and her brothers, and the Gaffer and Marigold and all. I can’t think somehow that Gandalf would have sent Mr. Frodo on this errand, if there hadn’t a’ been any hope of his ever coming back at all. Things all went wrong when he went down in Moria. I wish he hadn’t. He would have done something.'
But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was turned to a new strength. Sam’s plain hobbit-face grew stern, almost grim, as the will hardened in him, and he felt through all his limbs a thrill, as if he was turning into some creature of stone and steel that neither despair nor weariness nor endless barren miles could subdue.
Further, from this passage alone, there is little to help us pick out Rosie as Sam's amorata - could be Marigold (I've forgotten who Marigold is, if this is ever explained...) Or nobody mentioned above.
It is easy to imagine another author -- only realising at this point that Sam left a beloved behind in Bywater -- feeling that that lover needs a mention or two earlier.
And so it is perfectly reasonable to see Rosie as an afterthought. If we are to infer that Sam has been 'torn in two' all along, it seems to me we have to add that to the story ourselves.
And yet...
I'm thinking of all that Tolkien doesn't say about the Aragorn--Arwen relationship. Once a reader has got into the appendices, it's hard to argue with the assertion that Aragorn's love for Arwen is intended to be one of the major propulsive forces of his life. She does 'appear' in the main text a bit more than Rosie, but so little that I've read people saying they were surprised when Tolkien introduces her as Aragorn's long-intended bride and the love of his life.
And then they are no sooner married than he leaves her behind to see his mates off.
What I don't know is how these treatements of the ladies would have come across to Tolkien's peers and imagined first audience. Would the little we see in the text have been perfectly adequate to convey that a relationship existed, might be a major passion, but was not an appropriate subject for a chap to talk about to other men? Or would it have seemed a little odd?
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Felagund
Nargothrond
Fri, 1:00pm
Post #8 of 11
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Tolkien's unpublished Epilogue to LotR is interesting in this regard too. The setting is Sam's family life, c. 15 years after Frodo's departure to the West. However, it's centred around Sam's relationship with his children, especially his eldest child, Eleanor. There is a touching scene towards the end of the second version, where Sam and Rosie look over their children, as they put them to bed. Rosie recalls Sam's return to the Shire and her faith in Sam's homecoming, while Sam replies that he did indeed return, "To the most belovedest place in all the world. To my Rose and my garden". But Rosie is all but invisible up to that point, and the closing words are a somewhat bittersweet, to my mind, reference to the sea, which we know will eventually draw Sam away again and for good.
There are two other relationships covered in the dialogue, that of Arwen and Aragorn's and that of Galadriel and Celeborn. Three, actually, if you include Elanor's interest in the fate of the Ents and the Entwives.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Fri, 4:03pm
Post #9 of 11
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But even as he did so, he heard suddenly, deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
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Yes, the Epilogue ends with one of my favourite sentences in all Tolkien:
They went in, and Sam shut the door. But even as he did so, he heard suddenly, deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
A shock after all that 'Rosie-wife' and 'Sam-dad' sweetness (whcih feels, to my mind a little cloying). And it seems (from HoME) that it was a late addition to the first draft Epilogue (with some minor changes of wording for the second draft).
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Sat, 7:26pm
Post #10 of 11
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I look forward to any 'couples' piece you ultimately write!
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Meanwhile, it is striking me that Tolkien doesn't go over-much for the trope that Romance Happens (or Deepens) On The Quest. Or at least I can't think of many examples (which may not mean much).
Beren and Luthien most nearly - but they are cosmically smitten with each other at once, and then do all the adventuring.
Eowyn and Faramir the mirror image - romance breaks out once mutual respect is estabished (so nice for each of those two over-looked younger siblings, one might think). But they're both on the sick list by then. And I'm no sure how convinced I'd be by Tolkien's handling of that section, if I didn't want it to work out so much.
In LOTR we're more likely to see long-estabished couples, such as Celeborn and Galadriel. Or Goldberry and Tom.
Does this mean anything? Is it significant that the Celeborn and Galadriel coupledom ends like the Ents and Entwives (she leaves, he's sad)?
Dunno.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
1:24am
Post #11 of 11
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Is it significant that the Celeborn and Galadriel coupledom ends like the Ents and Entwives (she leaves, he's sad)?
For what it's worth, the LOTR prologue strongly suggests that Celeborn and Galadriel will be reunited eventually, probably sooner rather than later. Early in the Fourth Age, Celeborn moved to Imladris to stay with his grandsons, Elladan and Elrohir (i.e. the sons of Elrond; this is also mentioned in Appendix B), and although "there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days of Middle-earth",* the implication seems pretty clear that (the translator–editor of the Red Book believes) he departed eventually. Elladan and Elrohir may have gone with him; Tolkien says "they delay[ed] their choice, and remain[ed in Middle-earth] for a while" after their father's departure, though he played coy about whether they eventually sailed or not (Letters, no. 153). It seems plausible to me that Celeborn and his grandsons left on the same ship, sometime before IV.120, when Aragorn referred to "the garden of Elrond where none now walk" (LOTR, Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen). If so, Celeborn and Galadriel's separation lasted for little more than a century, if not less. That said, this sits oddly with Celeborn's farewell to Aragorn, "May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!" (ROTK, VI 6), which implies he expects his separation from Galadriel will be permanent.
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* The users/editors of Tolkien Gateway have spilt a fair amount of digital ink agonising over how to synthesise this statement with the following line from Appendix A.I.iii: "At the Grey Havens dwelt Círdan the Shipwright, and some say he dwells there still, until the Last Ship sets sail into the West. In the days of the Kings most of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth dwelt with Círdan or in the seaward lands of Lindon. If any now remain they are few." This line was printed within quotation marks, indicating an ostensible direct quotation from an in-universe text. In context, it's clear that the passage was (a) written in the late Third Age rather than the early Fourth, since it refers to "the days of the Kings" in the past tense, and (b) was written by someone poorly informed about Lindon since they didn't know if it was still populated. As such, we shouldn't take the idea of Círdan's "Last Ship" literally. The statement in the prologue was not printed in quotation marks, but rather was Tolkien in his pretend guise as the modern translator of the Red Book speaking directly, purportedly thousands of years after the last events described in the Red Book. However, given pretend-Tolkien's professed ignorance about the date of Celeborn's departure, it's debatable how much weight we should give to the "last living memory" line (to say nothing of what a literal reading implies about the fates of Bombadil and Treebeard).
(This post was edited by Eldy on 1:30am)
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