Huan took pity on Luthien and abandoned Celegorm, who had become altogether evil, sending Beren to certain death at the hands of Sauron and kidnapping Luthien, plotting to marry her and force Thingol into an alliance.

The blade and its twin Anguirel were crafted by Eöl the Dark Elf, and the black heart of their creator went into their making. Eöl had gifted Anglachel to Thingol as a fee for allowing him to dwell in Nan Elmoth; however, Thingol never wielded the sword, as Melian warned him that there was malice in the blade. It is fitting from the standpoint of justice that Anglachel eventually drank Túrin's blood for having killed Beleg. Otherwise, I'm not sure Anglachel could be considered loyal to anyone, given its evil inception.

Then turning upon Fingolfin he drew his sword, crying: ‘Get thee gone, and take thy due place!’ Fingolfin bowed before Finwë, and without word or glance to Fëanor he went from the chamber.
But Fëanor followed him, and at the door of the king’s house he stayed him; and the point of his bright sword he set against Fingolfin’s breast. ‘See, half-brother!’ he said. ‘This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls.’

but Dior was slain also, and Nimloth his wife, and the cruel servants of Celegorm seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest.

one of the reasons i started this thread was because i was interested in the notion of evil in elves (vs. evil in sentient beings), because i was thinking about how i had this general assumption that elves = good, and perhaps that was too simplistic.

elves do seem to be closer to eru (certainly to the maiar and valar, who are indeed even closer to eru), in that they are wiser, healthier, more beautiful than the edain (generally), and they are incredibly resistant to disease and injury (so much moreso than the edain).

now, some of these traits can be associated with "goodness" (wisdom), but so many are independent of goodness (beauty, resistance to injury, resistance to sickness, artistic and inventive skill). but we tend to project "goodness" and worth onto individuals who have these traits. certainly there has always been a trend (among humans) to associate worth / goodness to individuals who have a lot of wealth and security, conflating those things with moral worth.

so, if elves are more natively "good" (but are they?), the thought that some of them could be natively evil, or turn to evil seems so mind-blowing. to be so closely linked to eru and eru's agents of goodness, to have so many gifts (those traits that, while they do not equate to goodness, are certainly of great value and supremely existence-enhancing: the resistance to injury and illness, the health, the beauty, the artistry, inventiveness, etc.)

are all elves capable of evil? are the noldorians more vulnerable to it (due to their love of sub-creation)?

even elves who are not evil can certainly be tough to be around. just ask beren about thingol, who sent him on a quest that seemed sure to kill him. that particular quest (for the silmaril) seemed to ensnare thingol in the transitive evil of feanor's oath, but even if thingol hadn't set beren's quest to the silmaril, it seems probable that thingol would have set beren on some similarly death-risking / impossible task -- and would that have been evil? couldn't thingol have just said "no, you can't marry my daughter," and have left it at that? why try to (effectively) kill beren? or would have thingol not set beren on any death-inducing quest, that the death-inducing part was only part of it because thingol invoked the silmarils (which may have corrupted thingol's thinking, or pushed him to rasher edicts)?

cheers --

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Still, there are non-relatives who can be bad, such as

Quote

So, what's their excuse--just following orders???? Sorry, that hasn't worked since Nuremburg. I'll go on record that leaving children to starve to death is evil, and argue with me all you want.

There is the fuller story of Turin where Thingol has some unsavory Elves at court who taunt Turin, and then Turin's revenge leads one of them to run naked and die in an accident, or something like that. But I'd stop at "unsavory; bullies; SEE jerk" and not call them evil.

Similarly, I don't see Turgon as evil for over-loving Gondolin. He truly thought he and his people were safe there. I think it would have been evil for him to say, "I don't care if everyone dies, so what? I don't feel like moving." But he didn't do or say that. Character flaw, but not evil.

This does lead to a broader discussion of how we would agree on evil in LOTR. Sauron and Melkor? Yes, obviously, and troll votes don't count. Bill Ferny, yes, but in a small, sneaky way. The ruffians who terrorized the Shire under Sharkey and Lotho? Yes, but small "e" evil. Bad people. Not Evil Dark Lords Bent on World Domination and Tyranny and Sadism.

The Dead who obeyed Aragorn? Well, they worshiped Sauron, which sounds evil to me, but I think given their remorse and willingness to pay penance, they are ex-evil.

Just my 2 cents.

Ferny & Co. were evil only because their scope was limited. Given the right opportunity, they might have excelled. Or maybe not-maybe they wouldhave hit some kind of limit that their consciences would have rebelled at. Would they have been so quick to keep serving Saruman if they were aware of the depths Grima had sunk to? Or would they have cared at all?

But Aragorn dismounted, and standing by the Stone he cried in a great voice: ‘Oathbreakers, why have ye come?’

And a voice was heard out of the night that answered him, as if from far away: ‘To fulfil our oath and have peace.’

And a voice was heard out of the night that answered him, as if from far away: ‘To see who's winning the war and make sure we're on the winning side this time.’

The wedding of his father was not pleasing to Fëanor; and he had no great love for Indis, nor for Fingolfin and Finarfin, her sons. He lived apart from them, exploring the land of Aman, or busying himself with the knowledge and the crafts in which he delighted. In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which Fëanor was the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finwë, judging that if Finwë had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Fëanor would have been otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finwë is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves. But the children of Indis were great and glorious, and their children also; and if they had not lived the history of the Eldar would have been diminished.

But in the bearing of her son Míriel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his birth she yearned for release from the labour of living. And when she had named him, she said to Finwë: ‘Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanor.’

‘It is indeed unhappy,’ said Míriel, ‘and I would weep, if I were not so weary. But hold me blameless in this, and in all that may come after.’ She went then to the gardens of Lórien and lay down to sleep; but though she seemed to sleep, her spirit indeed departed from her body, and passed in silence to the halls of Mandos.

Now it came to pass that Finwë took as his second wife Indis the Fair. She was a Vanya, close kin of Ingwë the High King, golden-haired and tall, and in all ways unlike Míriel. Finwë loved her greatly, and was glad again.

elves do seem to be closer to eru (certainly to the maiar and valar, who are indeed even closer to eru), in that they are wiser, healthier, more beautiful than the edain (generally), and they are incredibly resistant to disease and injury (so much moreso than the edain).

now, some of these traits can be associated with "goodness" (wisdom), but so many are independent of goodness (beauty, resistance to injury, resistance to sickness, artistic and inventive skill). but we tend to project "goodness" and worth onto individuals who have these traits. certainly there has always been a trend (among humans) to associate worth / goodness to individuals who have a lot of wealth and security, conflating those things with moral worth.

Being evil, doing evil...I've been enjoying this discussion