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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Tue, 1:42am
Post #51 of 56
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Faramir was just another object like a palantir that he possessed that was going to the grave with him. Yes, that's a dark view, but it happens. And we do not have a clear answer on how Denethor felt but i like to think also that he valued and loved Faramir at the end and not just because Gandalf said so. This is an interesting topic to me because i'm trying to figure out post-Quest how Faramir can navigate his feelings to move on in the 4th Age without his family. (well lots of anxiety and PTSD for him regarding the fact that his father only try to burn him alive)
"But he himself went up alone into the secret room under the summit of the Tower; and many who looked up thither at that time saw a pale light that gleamed and flickered from the narrow windows for a while, and then flashed and went out. And when Denethor descended again he went to Faramir and sat beside him without speaking, but the face of the Lord was grey, more deathlike than his son's."- The Siege of Gondor, RotK I think i read this is that yes, he is under the palantir clearly at the time, but what motivated him to commit suicide was that he lost all hope, he has too much pride to be taken down by Sauron, and he sought to take down Faramir with him because he still loved him enough not to want to be parted from him at the end.
And yes, i'm sure that other threads (namely the one from 2 years ago) has mentioned his motivations but i just want to say despair drove him mad and instead of recovering, he had to do the most drastic thing that others may not have thought of.
This is all book! Denthor. LIke what nowiz said above, i do not like to think of movie!Denethor at all because he was very one dimensional, flat, and oversimplified which NoWizardMe mentioned in his post.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Tue, 1:53am
Post #52 of 56
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I don't despise book! Denethor either
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I just like to figure out his thinking before he burned himself alive. DId the palantir hold him that he was not totally of sound mind?
He seemed liked he knew what he wanted.
I would have things as they were in all the days of my life, and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who woudl be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught; neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honor abated."
that is so eloquently spoken, not like someone who is about to jump into the fire and kill himself. Clearly, he knows what he wants but Gandalf says also as calmly that he could also choose to "faithfully surrender his charge " which Denethor denies that he would.
Denethor also syas why do we fight "Battle is vain. Why should we wish to live longer? Why shoudl we not go to death side by side?"
This despair isn't unfounded. Minas Tirith IS surrounded. It is not that Denethor is mad but he really lost hope and do we really blame him? Many do blame him and want him to use his soldiers to fight on but i am not sure all commanders can have that strong of a will to fight on.
Contrast him to all that do keep fighting despite the odds stacked against him, not everyone can fight on and this is an example of a broken man. (and the palantir did not help his perception)
So i would pity him a bit and not go on and despise him.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
(This post was edited by elentari3018 on Tue, 1:54am)
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Wed, 8:35am
Post #53 of 56
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Aragorn and Denethor as Leaders
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A further point. In the talk to Swathmore College to which I've already referred, Tom Shippey says of Denethor: It is hard for people to grasp the idea of conflict of interests. That you can have people who are allied to each other and who are certainly on the same side. But who do not see things the same way, and Denethor actually is a person who's interests are only with Gondor. Well okay and that's true in both the book and the movie. But in the book it's accepted as, well unfortunate but perfectly reasonable. In the movie, this has to be demonized rather, because everybody is felt to have to pursue their interests the same way.
"Tolkien Book to Jackson Script: The Medium and the Message"I only partly agree. I think it's certainly true that Gandalf has a hard time being the roving diplomat of Middle-earth because people want to protect their own borders and interests. Treebeard, who is not sure which side he is on because who is on his side? sums this up nicely. And, maybe fair enough: we should judge Denethor by how well he serves Gondor's interests, not how convenient he is for Gandalf or Aragorn. But - as already explained - I think if we ask how well Denethor serves Gondor the answer is not so well. Not so badly as movie-Denethor. But I think we have to read the text against itself most determinedly to come to any conclusion other than that the Return of the King is in Gondor's best interests.
I think the White Council's aim to replace Denethor with a compliant puppet ruler - and I think that was exactly what the White Council meant to do with Aragorn - was not something befitting the supposed forces of good. I think Denethor was objectively doing a good job governing Gondor and did not need to be replaced. Yet the White Council wanted him replaced anyway. Maybe the White Council wanted for Gondor to switch to a more aggressive foreign policy against Sauron, but the Stewards disliked the idea of large numbers of combat deaths that would have been the inevitable result of such a policy and preferred to fight with the advantage of walls instead. When Aragorn gets into power, almost the first thing he does is march to the Black Gate, and that was close to being an utter and complete military disaster for Gondor, all for the sake of a diversion. And we never get the numbers for how many of the men under Aragorn's command ended up dead anyway... Aragorn even gets his forces surrounded and divided, so that they had to fight at a tactical disadvantage and were near to being wiped out completely before the end. Aragorn has no emotional connection to his subjects though, and so doesn't mind. I'm reminded of how Sauron uses his Orcs.
Far from being the obvious True King, Aragorn's claim to the throne was in actuality remarkably weak, Aragorn was a (supposed) descendant of Arvedui, and that claim had already been rejected back in Arvedui's time. I would not even dismiss the possibility that Elrond had fabricated the lineage for Aragorn. In fact, I think it rather likely. Also, we only see the very beginnings of Aragorn's reign in any detail - the political honeymoon period. I think there is good reason to suspect that Aragorn wasn't such a great ruler after all, but the book ends where it does.
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Meneldor
Doriath
Wed, 3:33pm
Post #54 of 56
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I disagree strenuously with parts of this post.
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Aragorn has no emotional connection to his subjects though, and so doesn't mind. I'm reminded of how Sauron uses his Orcs. During his younger days of errantry as Thorongil, Aragorn served Gondor closely and faithfully. I have no doubt he was thoroughly invested, both emotionally and practically, in the people of Gondor.
I would not even dismiss the possibility that Elrond had fabricated the lineage for Aragorn. In fact, I think it rather likely. I see nothing in JRRT's writings to support this theory. To the contrary, his stories often show us that such deceptions never end well.
Also, we only see the very beginnings of Aragorn's reign in any detail - the political honeymoon period. I think there is good reason to suspect that Aragorn wasn't such a great ruler after all, but the book ends where it does. The appendices indicate otherwise.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Thu, 12:17pm
Post #55 of 56
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Aragorn has no emotional connection to his subjects though, and so doesn't mind. I'm reminded of how Sauron uses his Orcs. During his younger days of errantry as Thorongil, Aragorn served Gondor closely and faithfully. I have no doubt he was thoroughly invested, both emotionally and practically, in the people of Gondor.
Aragorn had spent decades away from Gondor. He is not known to have made any notable friends and did not fall in love with a Gondorian woman. The only Gondorian person in the story who is known to know Aragorn from back then is Denethor who loathes Aragorn and is absolutely unwilling to have him as the King. No one in the main story sings Thorongil's praises and Aragorn himself doesn't bring back the name. Aragorn in the story shows himself as a disastrously incompetent commander who spends Gondorian lives as if they were very cheap. The diversion at the Black Gate could have been handled much better. The situation would have been even worse if the Mouth of Sauron also wasn't an incompetent commander.
I think there was something major about Aragorn's original departure from Gondor that was passed over in the Appendices. I think the "my work is done" explanation makes no sense, as Aragorn would have been wanting to become the King even at that early time, and the major delays prevented him from getting to marry Arwen. Dropping out to gather more life experience doesn't make sense, as Denethor was younger than Thorongil and being a ranger in the North fails to teach many important skills for a king.
I think Aragorn must have originally slunk away from Gondor in total disgrace. His military theories could perhaps have failed exceptionally hard, or there could have been something worse, such as him murdering Ecthelion to seize the throne, but then Denethor came back, having turned a supposed suicide mission into a great victory, and put a stop to Aragorn's ambitions.
I would not even dismiss the possibility that Elrond had fabricated the lineage for Aragorn. In fact, I think it rather likely. I see nothing in JRRT's writings to support this theory. To the contrary, his stories often show us that such deceptions never end well.
I can't think of a single example of what you are talking about... Are you just talking about generic "good triumphing over evil"? Tolkien wrote his fair share of tragedy too.
The closest thing I can think of is the poem "The Hoard" in which the dragon-slaying hero becomes a king and is years later overthrown in his old age as an unpopular tyrant.
I'm also reminded of Thorin, another returning king pushed by Gandalf, who in this case fails with Thorin's death. I'm not questioning Thorin's ancestry, but Thorin in the story demonstrates that he would never have been a great king even if he had lived. His deficits in wisdom and diplomacy are notable, but I suppose Gandalf could have been counting on getting to make the big decisions in Thorin's stead,
Also, we only see the very beginnings of Aragorn's reign in any detail - the political honeymoon period. I think there is good reason to suspect that Aragorn wasn't such a great ruler after all, but the book ends where it does. The appendices indicate otherwise.
The appendices are not written from the neutral omniscient point of view. The relevant portions are especially not-neutral to the point that I find that they stand out as obviously biased to the point of hagiography. This makes sense too, as we know that the published version of the Red Book of Westmarch was edited for Gondorian audiences.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Thu, 2:19pm
Post #56 of 56
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I think there was something major about Aragorn's original departure from Gondor that was passed over in the Appendices. I think the "my work is done" explanation makes no sense, as Aragorn would have been wanting to become the King even at that early time, and the major delays prevented him from getting to marry Arwen. Dropping out to gather more life experience doesn't make sense, as Denethor was younger than Thorongil and being a ranger in the North fails to teach many important skills for a king.
I think Aragorn must have originally slunk away from Gondor in total disgrace. His military theories could perhaps have failed exceptionally hard, or there could have been something worse, such as him murdering Ecthelion to seize the throne, but then Denethor came back, having turned a supposed suicide mission into a great victory, and put a stop to Aragorn's ambitions. You neglect the fact that Aragorn was not in a position to wed Arwen when he left the service of Ecthelion II. It wasn't until much later in that year that the couple plighted their troth on the hill of Cerin Amroth, and it wasn't until well after that that Elrond challenged him to become the King of the Reunited Kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor.
It is also recorded that "Thorongil" was much respected in Gondor and the steward Ecthelion highly valued him. As Thorongil, Aragorn left after his great victory against the Corsairs of Umbar, having led an attack that destroyed much of their fleet. That is hardly slinking away in disgrace, total or otherwise.
Ah well, no thread seems complete these days without the input of our resident conspiracy theorist.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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