Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
The concept of utmost despair for our characters
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

noWizardme
Gondolin


Tue, 6:46pm

Post #26 of 32 (5465 views)
Shortcut
Another for the list: In Cirith Ungol, Sam cannot find Frodo [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
He ran back to the lower storey and tried the door. It would not move. He ran up again, and sweat began to trickle down his face. He felt that even minutes were precious, but one by one they escaped; and he could do nothing. He cared no longer for Shagrat or Snaga or any other orc that was ever spawned. He longed only for his master, for one sight of his face or one touch of his hand.
At last, weary and feeling finally defeated, he sat on a step below the level of the passage-floor and bowed his head into his hands. It was quiet, horribly quiet. The torch, that was already burning low when he arrived, sputtered and went out; and he felt the darkness cover him like a tide. And then softly, to his own surprise, there at the vain end of his long journey and his grief, moved by what thought in his heart he could not tell, Sam began to sing.

His voice sounded thin and quavering in the cold dark tower: the voice of a forlorn and weary hobbit that no listening orc could possibly mistake for the clear song of an Elven-lord. He murmured old childish tunes out of the Shire, and snatches of Mr. Bilbo’s rhymes that came into his mind like fleeting glimpses of the country of his home. And then suddenly new strength rose in him, and his voice rang out, while words of his own came unbidden to fit the simple tune.
In western lands beneath the Sun
the flowers may rise in Spring...


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Gondolin


Tue, 7:35pm

Post #27 of 32 (5395 views)
Shortcut
Faramir doesn't get all the credit [In reply to] Can't Post

I see how I created that impression, but I think Eowyn-Faramir are in it 50-50.


Quote
Therefore, somehow she grew from her wanting to die and not being caged and whatever good feelings Faramir gave to her was sufficient. Should we credit all that Faramir's doing though?

She wasn't going to come back to a life of hope on her own, and she needed human connection, and he was it. What happened next, they cooked up together, with him as the spark for the fire that had gone out in her.



CuriousG
Gondolin


12:33am

Post #28 of 32 (4339 views)
Shortcut
Nice perspective on Merry helping Eowyn vs the Wi-king [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
For Merry, I'm not entirely sure whether he was in despair/without hope, or whether he wasn't really thinking in those terms at all and everything was simply immediate, and full of choices, without really much room for him to know if he was feeling despair or not.


Good insight, Ethel. While he was in conflict, he didn't have the luxury to weigh all his options or engage in much introspection:


Quote
Going from:
‘King’s man! King’s man!’ his heart cried within him. ‘You must stay by him. As a father you shall be to me, you said.’ But his will made no answer, and his body shook. He dared not open his eyes or look up.

To:
Pity filled his heart and great wonder, and suddenly the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke. He clenched his hand. She should not die, so fair, so desperate! At least she should not die alone, unaided.

I'm trying to think my way through Merry's feelings and actions, but he did no such thing: he was a blur of instincts and principles and fear and inspired courage, all very immediate as you point out, and he just acted on a very hasty plan and on whatever emotions took hold of him. I do think that overall, Merry was determined to do what was right, even if he was in a situation for over his head.


noWizardme
Gondolin


8:18am

Post #29 of 32 (2637 views)
Shortcut
Bewilderment and Trust [In reply to] Can't Post

Duty drives several of our characters, but I'm going to argue that this requires trust.

Prof Tom Shippey ("TS") did a talk for Swathmore College called "Tolkien Book to Jackson Script: The Medium and the Message" The audio transcript I've just linked to is a bit rambly. Maybe it was a Really Good Dinner. Or maybe the clear way one argument follows another in Prof Shippey's books shows the hand of his editor. Either way, there's a lot of good stuff in that talk, and I'm going to excerpt some, hopefully without that causing distortion.

Quote
The characters are often bewildered and they're bewildered in two senses. They're bewildered because they're lost in wilder land, they don't know where they are. Sometimes of course, they discuss where they are. Mary and Pippin are particularly lost because they're too idle ever to look at a map. But even Aragorn has a good idea where everything is, he is often lost in the sense of not being sure what to do. So they're bewildered in being lost in wilder land, but they're also bewildered in they don't know what to do. Aragorn in particular feels this strongly I think at the start of book two, because he has to make a string of decisions. Okay, Mary and Pippin have been carried off. Frodo and Sam have gone off in the other direction. Who's he gonna follow? Mary and Pippin, they've been taken by Orcs...
A lot of it is an effect of the complex separations which take place. Like I say, first movie road movie. Second movie, second book characters are going off in all directions. Frodo and Sam, Mary and Pippin, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. Gandalf comes in, they swap over then Pippin goes off with Gandalf. Mary goes off with the riders or goes off with Éowyn. The characters are zipping backwards and forwards all the time. Gandalf sort of criss-crossing...


This very complicated set of movements was simplified for the PJ movies - probably inevitably in the medium of film to avoid confusion and have continuity, TS thinks. But he feels the sense of bewilderment caused by these movements was lost in the films. Also, that the movies lost the sense that trying to learn more by palantir usually does more harm than good.

Quote
And why does he [Tolkien in his books] have this complex net of criss-crossings and bewilderments and speculations? Well I'd say the answer to that, is fairly clear. What he's saying is, and I can sum it up in four words, which is the old motto of the British Red Coat. Which is, "Look to your front." You don't look to the sides, don't look to see what your mates are doing. You don't need to know that, cause if you're looking to see what they're doing. They'll be looking to see what you're doing. And you will have frightened each other in no time. Certainly don't look behind you, look to your front. Or another way that it's put and this time it's Gandalf's words. Gandalf talking to Frodo early on in the book and repeated twice actually by Jackson.

He says, "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us". All we have to do is decide what we're going to do. Do not think about other people. Once you start making your decisions on the basis of what you think other peoples decisions will be, you are speculating. And when you start speculating, you will inevitably get it wrong. You will actually frighten yourself, and drive yourself to wrong conclusions. Like Denethor and indeed like Sauron. Well, I think actually in the book all that's quite clear. It's a statement about the way events are in the real world. It's telling you what is the right procedure in the real world. But in the movies, it's quite different... .


Potentially good life advice for troubled times there.

But I think the 'look to your front' method relies on trust. I don't see Frodo or Sam ever worrying themselves that they might be the victims of soem Wizardly plot by Gandalf, perhaps cooked up with the elves. Boromir thinks this and looks what happens to him. Nor do they worry that other characters are up to political manouvers, as Denethor does. Frodo carries on into Mordor despite seeing an apparently entirely invincible army set out from Minas Morghul (see the OP). The Captains of the West advance on ordor with an entirely er... vincible army, and it occurs to nobody that Frodo has given up or handed the Ring to Sauron. Instead, the necessity is to give Frodo every last minute of time to do his job.
By contrast, the opposing forces are all each one for himself.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Gondolin


3:09pm

Post #30 of 32 (1040 views)
Shortcut
"By contrast, the opposing forces are all each one for himself." [In reply to] Can't Post

I was musing along similar lines as I peruse the book and re-read comments here. "Consolation in time of troubles" feels like a 100-head hydra, because a lot is wrong, more than just one thing. And arguably, there's not too much wrong in Middle-earth once you get rid of Sauron (I said not too much, meaning he's not the only problem). But maybe Sauron is the root or heart of the hydra that the 100 heads spring from. Anyway, facing multiple challenges is daunting in itself even if one "Looks to your front," because you can see more than one problem to face off against.

And I don't have an answer to that, but I was thinking that the successful, good people in LOTR 1) trust the Cosmic Good, 2) trust their friends, and 3) take meaningful action to support their friends and have 100% faith their friends will reciprocate. We can go all the way back to Crickhollow where Frodo's friends pledge to give up their comfortable, easy lives in the Shire to accompany him. And then think of every danger along the way and write a not-Tolkien version:

1. Old Man Willow: "Well," Frodo said, wiping away an imaginary tear as he explained to Bombadil, "I'll miss Merry and Pippin, but it was too dangerous to help them."
2. Fog on the Barrow-downs: "Of course," Bombadil nodded to Frodo, "leaving your friends to die in the Barrow while you run free is the choice anyone would make, even me."
3. Post-Weathertop: "Of course," Aragorn explained, "anyone can bear the Ring, so you take it, Sam, and we'll leave Frodo behind in the wilderness, because he's wounded and slowing us down and will just become a wraith anyway." The others agreed. It's a choice anyone would make to survive.

So we don't get any of Bill Ferny in the main characters, and no one even wrestles with ethical conflicts like that. And as you pointed out, Boromir and Eomer distrust Lorien, but the others don't. Gimli even becomes a convert!

There's a trust that there's Cosmic Good manifesting itself in the world, if you know where to look for it, and if you know who to trust. And men of Rohan and Gondor never had a reason to distrust Lorien, that's just ignorant prejudice at play. Like hobbits in Hobbiton saying Bucklanders are queer and vice versa.

I think this basic trust in each other and that there's as much as good in the world as evil is something that gives the characters resilience.


CuriousG
Gondolin


3:25pm

Post #31 of 32 (981 views)
Shortcut
Sam keeps going when Frodo is ready to give up [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Do hobbits have an internal power to handle despair and be extra resilient against the powers of evil? I think that is another hobbit superpower, one in which the Wise think that they would be less suspect to the power of the Ring- it's because they keep going despite the darkness that the Ring emulates.


Hobbits' superpower of not giving up. OK, this counts as utmost despair: when you're alone in a hell-landscape, surrounded by lava on a volcano, and you're starving to death and dehydrated. And really, the lava!

It's a good contrast between Frodo's big-picture/existential despair and Sam's smaller-picture pragmatism. Sure, they might still die in the fire, but couldn't they move a little out of the way? Sam doesn't have all the answers, but he sees a way to make a little improvement in their situation, and he acts on it. I think there's a lot of wisdom in that, when faced with an overwhelmingly bad situation. It's reasonable to conclude that Sam bought them some extra time they needed for rescue, and if they hadn't moved, Gwaihir would have found cinders instead of hobbits, so even doing a little when you can't fix The Big Thing can leave you better off.


Quote
‘I am glad that you are here with me,’ said Frodo. ‘Here at the end of all things, Sam.’

‘Yes, I am with you, Master,’ said Sam, laying Frodo’s wounded hand gently to his breast. ‘And you’re with me. And the journey’s finished. But after coming all that way I don’t want to give up yet. It’s not like me, somehow, if you understand.’

‘Maybe not, Sam,’ said Frodo; ‘but it’s like things are in the world. Hopes fail. An end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin and downfall, and there is no escape.’

‘Well, Master, we could at least go further from this dangerous place here, from this Crack of Doom, if that’s its name. Now couldn’t we? Come, Mr. Frodo, let’s go down the path at any rate!’

‘Very well, Sam. If you wish to go, I’ll come,’ said Frodo;...Frodo and Sam could go no further. Their last strength of mind and body was swiftly ebbing. They had reached a low ashen hill piled at the Mountain’s foot; but from it there was no more escape.

But even while he spoke so, to keep fear away until the very last, his eyes still strayed north, north into the eye of the wind, to where the sky far off was clear, as the cold blast, rising to a gale, drove back the darkness and the ruin of the clouds.
...
two small dark figures, forlorn, hand in hand upon a little hill, while the world shook under them, and gasped, and rivers of fire drew near. And even as he espied them and came swooping down, he saw them fall, worn out, or choked with fumes and heat, or stricken down by despair at last, hiding their eyes from death.




Meneldor
Doriath


4:23pm

Post #32 of 32 (759 views)
Shortcut
Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
For Merry, I'm not entirely sure whether he was in despair/without hope, or whether he wasn't really thinking in those terms at all and everything was simply immediate, and full of choices, without really much room for him to know if he was feeling despair or not.


Good insight, Ethel. While he was in conflict, he didn't have the luxury to weigh all his options or engage in much introspection:


Quote
Going from:
‘King’s man! King’s man!’ his heart cried within him. ‘You must stay by him. As a father you shall be to me, you said.’ But his will made no answer, and his body shook. He dared not open his eyes or look up.

To:
Pity filled his heart and great wonder, and suddenly the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke. He clenched his hand. She should not die, so fair, so desperate! At least she should not die alone, unaided.

I'm trying to think my way through Merry's feelings and actions, but he did no such thing: he was a blur of instincts and principles and fear and inspired courage, all very immediate as you point out, and he just acted on a very hasty plan and on whatever emotions took hold of him. I do think that overall, Merry was determined to do what was right, even if he was in a situation for over his head.

As a C-130 flight engineer, I flew many combat missions in Iraq and I remember what it was like when the missile warning system went off and we had to take evasive action and pop flares to avoid getting hit. For me, there was no time for introspection or worrying about what might happen; the moment was all about doing what had to be done. I was totally focused on scanning for threats, operating systems, and monitoring gauges, and I had no time to pay attention to anything like being afraid. Winston Churchill once said, "Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result." It certainly brought my mind to a very sharp focus as I concentrated on keeping myself and my crew alive. I think for me my biggest fear was that I would make a mistake and get people killed. At those moments, there was no room in my head for anything else. It's not that the situation isn't scary; there's just no time to waste on fear. People trained for such things respond as they have been trained. As you said, it's very instinctive and immediate. At least it was for me.




They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.