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The concept of utmost despair for our characters

elentari3018
Nargothrond


Fri, 2:02am

Post #1 of 17 (16475 views)
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The concept of utmost despair for our characters Can't Post

Suddenly, despite his escape from the Lord of the Nazgûl, Frodo is overcome by despair.


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“Frodo stirred. And suddenly his heart went out to Faramir. ‘The storm has burst at last,’ he thought. ‘This great array of spears and swords is going to Osgiliath. Will Faramir get across in time? He guessed it, but did he know the hour? And who can now hold the fords when the King of the Nine Riders is come? And other armies will come. I am too late. All is lost. I tarried on the way. All is lost. Even if my errand is performed, no one will ever know. There will be no one I can tell. It will be in vain.’ Overcome with weakness he wept. And still the host of Morgul crossed the bridge.”

How many times do we see our characters in the utmost despair but still going on? I think i thought of this prompt to help me with the "lost time" prompt but i just want to list so many times of despair there are but our heroes keep going:

1) Aragorn when he felt despair at Boromir's passing
2) Pippin when he thought that Frodo had failed at the Black gate
3) Faramir felt a lot of despair when he had to try to overtake Osgiliath and the Causeway Forts at his father's bidding- what does he draw on to move on?
4) here for Frodo when he sees this vast army come out from MInas Morgul but he is no where close to Orodruin where he has to help with the destruction of the Ring but may be too late. (as mentioned in above quote)
5) When Sam thinks Frodo is dead, how can he move on without his master?
6) Gimli at the paths of the dead?

I love this topic of despair and how our characters pull within themselves, master themselves to move on... what other examples can you find? And how do our characters come out from despair? Where do they each draw their strength from to turn around feeling at their lowest?

I think i saw a thread talk about Aragorn and failure and it's somewhat related but we can also talk about how each character turns the corner and what makes them keep going. LotR is such a tale of resiliency and strength so how they draw their power to keep going is a great topic to talk about.

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


Meneldor
Doriath


Fri, 2:31am

Post #2 of 17 (16355 views)
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Reminds me of [In reply to] Can't Post

a saying I heard once: "Fight on, and do not despair. But if you do despair, then, fight on in despair."




They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Lissuin
Doriath


Fri, 12:53pm

Post #3 of 17 (14029 views)
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It's such a huge part of this tale, as you say, [In reply to] Can't Post

and was an inspiration to me to persevere with large and small problems more than once in life since I first read LOTR in my late teens.

If it was a quote from Tolkien or someone else contributing here, I don't remember, but because I've never been a soldier myself I'll take this thought from more experienced folk: Soldiers may enlist and join a cause because they are inspired to be a part of something important on a grand scale; they can then keep pressing forward because of their comrades on a personal level.

It goes along with Meneldor's comment, "Fight on, and do not despair. But if you do despair, then, fight on in despair." I imagine that many times a life or death situation in battle would seem overwhelming, but you cannot give up if others you care about are standing next to you and depending on you to do your part. Tolkien gives his characters many opportunities to despair and give up. They keep on with their tasks whether the people who depend on them are within reach or will never know that they kept on with the task. Someone is depending on them, and that is enough.

During his council, Elrond tries to inspire while preparing them for the difficulties ahead.

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"Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must,..."


Even Aragorn and Faramir must feel that they are too small for their tasks at times, let alone a hobbit.

Another example: Eowyn defending Theoden from the Witch King, and Merry defending her. Hopeless? Not together.

Great topic! Thanks for starting it.


CuriousG
Gondolin


Fri, 7:02pm

Post #4 of 17 (12734 views)
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Another Elrondism of comfort in despair [In reply to] Can't Post

Since you bring him up, this popped into my mind, as it often does when I'm feeling less than optimistic. It doesn't really work in the literal sense: Boromir is killed on the banks of the Anduin, and no one of these "hidden" powers and realms come to help him, nor do any show up on the Pelennor Fields to save his city, father, and brother. (Rohan, of course, was not hidden or unknown to Boromir, so doesn't count.)

BUT! The fuller context is comforting in an existential way, which is what Elrond intended. I think it's always clear that the War of the Ring wasn't won by a single hero but by a collective effort of decent people united in purpose across M-earth to defeat Sauron and his enablers. So while the Elrond quote is the part that comes to mind, I'll repeat the fuller context below about Boromir lonely and in doubt (not quite despair) at the Council, and Elrond assuring him that he's not alone, not by a long shot.


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‘Then be comforted,’ said Elrond. ‘For there are other powers and realms that you know not, and they are hidden from you. Anduin the Great flows past many shores, ere it comes to Argonath and the Gates of Gondor.’

(It might even deepen the context that Elrond chooses to reference Anduin, thus a reference to Ulmo's power, and Ulmo was always the most willing to help.)


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Boromir looked at them doubtfully, but he bowed his head. ‘So be it,’ he said. ‘Then in Gondor we must trust to such weapons as we have. And at the least, while the Wise ones guard this Ring, we will fight on. Mayhap the Sword-that-was-Broken may still stem the tide – if the hand that wields it has inherited not an heirloom only, but the sinews of the Kings of Men.’

‘Who can tell?’ said Aragorn. ‘But we will put it to the test one day.’

‘May the day not be too long delayed,’ said Boromir. ‘For though I do not ask for aid, we need it. It would comfort us to know that others fought also with all the means that they have.’

‘Then be comforted,’ said Elrond. ‘For there are other powers and realms that you know not, and they are hidden from you. Anduin the Great flows past many shores, ere it comes to Argonath and the Gates of Gondor.’

‘Still it might be well for all,’ said Glóin the Dwarf, ‘if all these strengths were joined, and the powers of each were used in league.



You also brought up:

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Another example: Eowyn defending Theoden from the Witch King, and Merry defending her. Hopeless? Not together.

My own interpretation is that neither of them fought with any hope at all, but they relied on other values that were foundational in their character: Eowyn was brave and devoted to Theoden, and Merry couldn't ignite his courage at all, even unable to rally in loyalty to Theoden, until Eowyn's defiance and courage inspired him and overcame his fear. I think they were both willing to risk death and just did what they could, compelled to do the right thing rather than turn away.

And some of the best writing ever in LOTR:


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Eowyn:
Her eyes grey as the sea were hard and fell, and yet tears were on her cheek. A sword was in her hand, and she raised her shield against the horror of her enemy’s eyes.
...Suddenly the great beast beat its hideous wings, and the wind of them was foul. Again it leaped into the air, and then swiftly fell down upon Éowyn, shrieking, striking with beak and claw. Still she did not blench: maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings, slender but as a steel-blade, fair yet terrible. A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly.



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Merry:
Éowyn it was, and Dernhelm also. For into Merry’s mind flashed the memory of the face that he saw at the riding from Dunharrow: the face of one that goes seeking death, having no hope. Pity filled his heart and great wonder, and suddenly the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke. He clenched his hand. She should not die, so fair, so desperate! At least she should not die alone, unaided.





CuriousG
Gondolin


Fri, 7:52pm

Post #5 of 17 (12540 views)
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And Elentari is back to remind us how it's *really* done. [In reply to] Can't Post

What a great and timely topic, especially for anyone not living off the grid in a cave with noise-cancelling earplugs. Smile

Your examples are all great. I wanted to add Gandalf's death, especially because on my 1st read, I thought he was really dead and gone from the story, and I was as lost as Frodo was in trying to figure out how *anything* could continue. Would they just return to Bag End and wait for the inevitable invasion by Sauron's enemies and death and slaughter and devastation? I had no idea. Plus I liked Gandalf and missed him!

Mapping it out, it's quite a journey, but no one said death, loss, and despair went away in a heartbeat. As I dug out the relevant passages to put below, I surprised myself at how comforting it is when taken together. There's a sense of resolution by the end, and I think that resolution restores hope, so the journey is worth it. There's more than one quest going on in LOTR:



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The loss in Moria:
[Gandalf] staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss. ‘Fly, you fools!’ he cried, and was gone.

Confusion and grief while escaping:
They stumbled wildly up the great stairs beyond the door, Aragorn leading, Boromir at the rear. At the top was a wide echoing passage. Along this they fled. Frodo heard Sam at his side weeping, and then he found that he himself was weeping as he ran.

Anger: (this was all long before Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's 5 stages of grief in 1969)
Aragorn smote to the ground the captain that stood in his path, and the rest fled in terror of his wrath.

Grief takes over once they reach safety outside:
Grief at last wholly overcame them, and they wept long: some standing and silent, some cast upon the ground.

Denial/forgetting:
Legolas to Galadriel and Celeborn: ‘At first we were weary and danger was too close behind; and afterwards we almost forgot our grief for a time, as we walked in gladness on the fair paths of Lórien.’

‘Yet our grief is great and our loss cannot be mended,’ said Frodo. ‘Gandalf was our guide, and he led us through Moria; and when our escape seemed beyond hope he saved us, and he fell.’

A strong leader resurrects and asserts hope amid despair:

Galadriel: 'for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat. 'I it was who first summoned the White Council. And if my designs had not gone amiss, it would have been governed by Gandalf the Grey, and then mayhap things would have gone otherwise. But even now there is hope left.'
They take care of their basic needs and allow themselves to wind down in Lorien:'The air was cool and soft, as if it were early spring, yet they felt about them the deep and thoughtful quiet of winter. It seemed to them that they did little but eat and drink and rest, and walk among the trees; and it was enough.

Art therapy in Lorien:'It was Frodo who first put something of his sorrow into halting words. He was seldom moved to make song or rhyme; even in Rivendell he had listened and had not sung himself, though his memory was stored with many things that others had made before him. But now as he sat beside the fountain in Lórien and heard about him the voices of the Elves, his thought took shape in a song that seemed fair to him;

Paying tribute to their memory by growing and learning something:

[Frodo and Sam capture Gollum in Emyn Muil]:
It seemed to Frodo then that he heard, quite plainly but far off, voices out of the past:

What a pity Bilbo did not stab the vile creature, when he had a chance!

Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need.
...‘Very well,’ he answered aloud, lowering his sword. ‘But still I am afraid. And yet, as you see, I will not touch the creature. For now that I see him, I do pity him.’



CuriousG
Gondolin


Fri, 8:17pm

Post #6 of 17 (12447 views)
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Faramir helps Frodo recuperate from despair not once but twice [In reply to] Can't Post

There's more than one way to carry on against despair in M-earth. Sometimes it's via inner resources, sometimes it's being fortified by a friend and ally:

The Faramir-Frodo exchanges give us insight into both people in some moving passages. For people who think there's not much depth to either, well, they're not paying attention. Faramir is a bit of a stand-in for Gandalf/Gildor/Aragorn/Glorfindel/Elrond/Galadriel in buttressing our plucky but vulnerable Ring-bearer, which puts him in good company.

Their first encounter is when Faramir interrogates Frodo as a spy in Ithilien:


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Frodo: 'And now your tale fills me with dread. For if Boromir was then in peril and was slain, I must fear that all my companions perished too. And they were my kindred and my friends.
‘Will you not put aside your doubt of me and let me go? I am weary, and full of grief, and afraid. But I have a deed to do, or to attempt, before I too am slain. And the more need of haste, if we two halflings are all that remain of our fellowship.
‘Go back, Faramir, valiant Captain of Gondor, and defend your city while you may, and let me go where my doom takes me.’

‘For me there is no comfort in our speech together,’ said Faramir; ‘but you surely draw from it more dread than need be. Unless the people of Lórien themselves came to him, who arrayed Boromir as for a funeral? Not Orcs or servants of the Nameless. Some of your Company, I guess, live still.
‘But whatever befell on the North March, you, Frodo, I doubt no longer. If hard days have made me any judge of Men’s words and faces, then I may make a guess at Halflings! Though,’ and now he smiled, ‘there is something strange about you, Frodo, an Elvish air, maybe.


The second is at Henneth Annun, when Faramir nobly defies the bewitchment of the Ring after a lot more (wearying) talk and probing with Frodo and Sam. Frodo just plain collapses.


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Frodo had felt himself trembling as the first shock of fear passed. Now a great weariness came down on him like a cloud. He could dissemble and resist no longer.
‘I was going to find a way into Mordor,’ he said faintly. ‘I was going to Gorgoroth. I must find the Mountain of Fire and cast the thing into the gulf of Doom. Gandalf said so. I do not think I shall ever get there.’

Faramir stared at him for a moment in grave astonishment. Then suddenly he caught him as he swayed, and lifting him gently, carried him to the bed and laid him there, and covered him warmly. At once he fell into a deep sleep.

...Sam hesitated for a moment, then bowing very low: ‘Good night, Captain, my lord,’ he said. ‘You took the chance, sir.’
‘Did I so?’ said Faramir.

‘Yes sir, and showed your quality: the very highest.’
...
‘Maybe,’ said Faramir. ‘Maybe you discern from far away the air of Númenor. Good night!’



elentari3018
Nargothrond


Sat, 2:59am

Post #7 of 17 (10957 views)
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Love the example of Eowyn as well! [In reply to] Can't Post

It is so inspiring to see our characters come out of despair and fight on.

Eowyn also had nothing left to lose but to fight to the death and leave it all on the battle field. For her, her helplessness was rooted in the fact of not feeling useful in her life in Rohan and not taken seriously. How else do you think Eowyn had gotten to this point?

i feel like with Frodo in Minas Morgul, he had already given up hope and he was just going to go on just to go on, to prove to himself and not have any pressure anymore on what others could judge him for succeeding or failing. I think at that moment at least for Frodo, he had nothing left to lose.

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


elentari3018
Nargothrond


Sat, 3:07am

Post #8 of 17 (10929 views)
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Love that you mention Faramir and Frodo [In reply to] Can't Post

because for the past two years, i have loved any analysis of Faramir and Frodo .


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Frodo had felt himself trembling as the first shock of fear passed. Now a great weariness came down on him like a cloud. He could dissemble and resist no longer.
‘I was going to find a way into Mordor,’ he said faintly. ‘I was going to Gorgoroth. I must find the Mountain of Fire and cast the thing into the gulf of Doom. Gandalf said so. I do not think I shall ever get there.’

This passage always gets me-- i feel like this is quite a turning point for Frodo and Faramir to understand each other and their purposes. Frodo- on his hopeless task even in his own point of view, it is quite pointless but he is going on nevertheless. How does he draw more strength to move on if he thinks it's that hopeless?

It's so heart-wrenching to think this hobbit could keep going in these many instances of doubt and despair but for some reason, Frodo still moves on.

In Minas Morgul especially he had nothing else to lose but to move on from the "utmost despair". Fortunately Sam was there to take him out not only the last time since we do hear from Frodo that he has "not any hope left". Frodo also mentions he is without hope when Sam rescues him in Cirith Ungol and also throughout his time in Mordor, he relied on Sam to continually guide him, having no hope and almost no strength left.

Kind of like Faramir... as he also says

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"What hope have we? It is long since we had any hope." Faramir, Window on the West , TTT

So how does Faramir keep going? He lost Boromir, then he is sent to retake Osgiliath though maybe three times outnumbered. Where does he draw his strength and resolve to keep going? I believe for him, he has no choice and his love of GOndor and his father kept him going even though he also has no hope.

I got the idea of the topic of utmost despair from Tolkien blog: https://stephencwinter.com/

And this is what he said about the religious aspect that underlies our characters' motivations at least from our author's point of view and we can contextulize it in terms of Tolkien's worldview:



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The early fathers of the Christian Church taught that an essential foundation of the spiritual life was a renunciation of despair and this is true. For Frodo this renunciation is expressed in the words “what he had to do, he had to do”. And it is worth emphasising here also, that for Frodo, and for many others also, the spiritual life is not some state of endless bliss but a bloody minded refusal to give in, a determination to go on putting one foot in front of the other. Tolkien puts this wonderfully as he concludes this passage by saying of Frodo that “he prepared to take the upward road”.


For those that do practice Christianity, how do we renunciate despair?

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK


(This post was edited by elentari3018 on Sat, 3:11am)


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Sat, 5:25pm

Post #9 of 17 (7702 views)
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Oh, my, what a wonderful post! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, me too. This is one of my all-time favorite sections of the book.

I'd like to go into more detail, but can't manage it right now. I do think both of them keep going because of a deep inner conviction that what they are working to protect – both different in aspects for both of them, but with I think pretty much the same thing at the core – is not only greater than themselves, but of both bedrock and transcendent importance. Because of this, they are willing to sacrifice themselves as individuals because of the overwhelming nature and overwhelming importance of what they are trying to preserve.

What this says about both of them as far as their innate unselfishness and what I think is their sort of heartbreaking nobility of character seems to be to be pretty clear.

About your last sentence: I've actually been dealing with this some lately myself, which is kind of new to me and not very welcome (the temptation to despair, that is). Personally, in terms of Christianity, it's again the bedrock and the transcendence. Or maybe the bedrock transcendence. Keeping in mind those things that matter the most, centrally and eternally, and our (for Christians) fairly clearly spelled out responsibility towards those things. I suppose much of that would be shared by most theists, although I can't say for sure since there are so many different kinds! But keeping whom we believe in, in the forefront is part of the way out of despair if you're in it, and part of the preventative if you're on the brink. But sometimes things are so overwhelming, that simply doesn't do it. And in my experience as a Christian, it's the indwelling power and presence and love of God, when I allow that to be conscious part of my situation, that provides a floor to the pit of despair and sometimes turns it into an elevator.



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Sat, 5:27pm)


Ethel Duath
Gondolin


Sat, 5:37pm

Post #10 of 17 (7654 views)
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Ah, yes, [In reply to] Can't Post

that and pretty much everything about that battle is some of the best writing, as you say.

I am sure Eowyn had no hope, but no one was messing with Theoden on her watch.

For Merry, I'm not entirely sure whether he was in despair/without hope, or whether he wasn't really thinking in those terms at all and everything was simply immediate, and full of choices, without really much room for him to know if he was feeling despair or not. I almost think at times that fear overwhelms absolutely everything, including hopelessness, I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't in that state at that time. Just conjecture, really.



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Sat, 5:38pm)


Meneldor
Doriath


Sat, 8:13pm

Post #11 of 17 (7059 views)
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Speaking strictly for myself... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
For those that do practice Christianity, how do we renunciate despair?

There are many ups and downs along the Way. Prayer and scripture give me perspective to keep things in their proper context (which is often as simple as "This too shall pass"). It's not always easy, and that quote above that mentions carrying on out of sheer bloody-mindedness certainly rings a familiar bell in my life.




They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


noWizardme
Gondolin


11:51am

Post #12 of 17 (998 views)
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Folly, despair, necessity and wisdom [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd like to suggest a distinction that I think might be interesting and helpful, though to begin with it might look like a pedantic quibble about what exactly 'despair' is. So please bear with me a while!

I'd like to start at The Council of Elrond:

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'Thus we return once more to the destroying of the Ring,' said Erestor, ‘and yet we come no nearer. What strength have we for the finding of the Fire in which it was made? That is the path of despair. Of folly I would say, if the long wisdom of Elrond did not forbid me.'

'Despair, or folly?' said Gandalf. 'It is not despair, for despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. We do not. It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope. Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.'
[my bolds]


I think that is a pretty fundamental statement.

Characters in Middle-earth (or in Arda) exist as we do: in a world they can only partly predict or control. Those who fight against that the hardest are the Dark Lords and wannabe Dark Lords of Middle-earth. But not only do they fail to control or eliminate everyone and everything, but I'd argue they cannot hope to succeed in the long term. That's because I think Arda or Middle-earth is inherently unpredictable and outside any individual's control.

Under those circumstances then, to think you "see the end beyond all doubt" is a mistake -- a point I think I've heard Prof Tom Shippey make. (I think I also recall that despair is traditionally a sin in Catholicism, and so perhaps Tolkien is being particularly careful about the word).

One major reason why nobody can "see the end beyond all doubt" is free will. Melkor or Sauron or Saruman stimulate resistance as well as terror or compliance. They can 'bulldoze' other wills to an extent, but not everywhere all the time.

Another snag is the difference between intention and actual impact. Saruman intends only to get the Ring for himself, but Tolkien points out explicitly how helpful his actions unintentionally turn out to be.

As I choose to imagine him, even Eru probably cannot say for certain what is going to happen next. Perhaps he exists in the eternal present and knows all futures (like one Catholic concept of God, I think). But it is futures the plural, and must be that while there is free will. If someone can freely choose A or B, there must be two futures right there. And that's before teh choice of A or B interacts with someone else choosing C or D or M&Ms. I expect that, just as in real life you can forecast what someone will do, but they can surprise you. Which, to return from speculation about Eru to something a bit more foundded in the text, is Gandalf's point in my quoted passage. Gandalf says Sauron will not imagine that his enemies will take the trivially-easy-to-counter path of having a small expedition take the Ring to Mount Doom, and this theory about the enemy gives the plan a chance.

So now to the hopefuly non-pedantic and non-quibbly distinction I wanted to make. I think we often see Tolkien characters realise that their siituation is bad, and that ther is no way they can now forsee for things to come right. Not only is it only understandable for characters to complain, moan or reflect under those circumstances; it's also of course very useful to the storyteller for them to soliliquise about the problem. But then [insert character name here] - what are you going to do next?

Despair is one possible choice of reaction. I would say Denethor most definitely despairs and decides to destroy himself in a useless hissy-fit of protest against a reality that reality won't behave as reuqired. Gandalf (and I assume Tolkien) disapproves. More often, characters decide to do something to carry on influencing events. "It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed" (as Gandalf says, above). This can lead to someone attempting something that has little chance of succcess, or is extremely likely to kill them even if it does succeed. Personally, I would say that is different to despair, and the difference is important. I think Gandalf (and Tolkien) would agree. But in pointing out that distinction I am not trying to constrict the discussion.

This certianly does overlap with the recent discussion about failure, which is here. I tried to investigate the low point for Aragorn of Boromir's death and the breaking of the Fellowship, something that has happened in part because of decisions Aragorn made or failed to make. Whatever, a crisis that Aragorn did not intend to happen has in fact happened. His discomfort, confusion and self-doubt is extreme. But he does not, I'd argue, give way to despair in the sense of (wrongly) thinking he can forsee the only possible way things can go.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


12:09pm

Post #13 of 17 (933 views)
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"Seeing the end beyond all doubt" is also hubris (tangent, probably) [In reply to] Can't Post

It has now struck me from how 'Seeing the end beyond all doubt' is also what Tolkien's Dark Lords do too. But there it's hubris, and bad strategy. Or the worst kind of bad strategy, according to Lawrence Freedman, who is Emeritus Professor of War Studies at King's College London. This is a bad strategy based on a false theory about the world. For example, I maen that Sauron (and Saruman) cannot believe that anyone would try to destroy the Ring, rather than use it.

I'm now going to give a limited quote from Freedman because select passages are so relevant to how Dark Lords behave in Tolkien. But to expand the quote or give a reference will pitch folks into a discussion of Current Affairs, out of scope on this board. ANyone wanting to find the ful article should do so easily enough, and have now been warned about its context


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This is not about objectives, for someone with terrible intent can be strategically adept, but about deciding on a course of action that will not only fail to achieve its stated intent but will have negative consequences that far exceed the positive...

Most of my work has been in the military sphere where bad strategy invariably involves underestimation of opponents and overestimation of one’s own capabilities. In many cases far too much emphasis is placed on catching the enemy by surprise with bold early moves and not enough on the later moves, especially if the surprise attacks fail to achieve their objectives. Not enough questions are asked about the quality of the intelligence, the sustainability of the logistics, the resilience of the forces, the attitudes of allies. And these problems are aggravated with commanders who are too self-confident and fail to listen to take advice or ask the right questions of their subordinates. ...

Some bad strategies are the result of incompetence, miscalculation, and inattention. Most fail to consider how other key actors will behave. But the worst are the result of bad theories, so detached from reality that efforts are directed towards achieving goals that are unattainable, employing methods that are bound to fail. To extricate a country or an organisation from a bad strategy it is essential to acknowledge its wrongness and retreat, but with a truly bad theory that requires abandoning an embedded world view.

Lawrence Freedman, Article, "The Art of Bad Strategy" on his blog, "Comment is Freed".


One form of despair we might now say, is to mistake the Dark Lord's foolish assumption of omnipotence for the reality

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on 12:15pm)


noWizardme
Gondolin


1:28pm

Post #14 of 17 (632 views)
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One for the list: Frodo thinks orcs have taken the Ring [In reply to] Can't Post


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'They’ve taken everything, Sam,' said Frodo. 'Everything I had. Do you understand? Everything!' He cowered on the floor again with bowed head, as his own words brought home to him the fullness of the disaster, and despair overwhelmed him. 'The quest has failed, Sam. Even if we get out of here, we can’t escape. Only Elves can escape. Away, away out of Middle-earth, far away over the Sea. If even that is wide enough to keep the Shadow out.'

Tower of Cirith Ungol


It's probably an encourging sign that Frodo's thoughts go to the general situation (that, re-united with his Ring Sauron will presumably conquer all of Middle-earth) and is not ranting about the loss of his Precious.

And his analysis of the situation may be spot on. At least, I think Tolkien is explaining here what would have happened if Sauron had regained the Ring.

But of course Frodo is mistaken. As readers at this point already know, Sam has the Ring and is just waiting for Mr Frodo to stop catastrophising so that he can say so.
Maybe that is a general point to add to the discussion, in fact: Sometimes (like here) we readers know that what seems a catastrophe to a character is nothing of the sort. At other times (e.g. the Mouth of Sauron shows Frodo's mithril shirt, when the last we 'saw' of Frodo was end of Book IV) we readers are tempted to jump to conclusions though we lack the information to assess the real situation.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Gondolin


41 mins ago

Post #15 of 17 (165 views)
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A sort of mixed message about the state of Frodo's soul at that point [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not too much later in the story that Frodo does succumb to the Ring as his Precious, and taking it for himself, he does make the quest fail. But here he is still Frodo Baggins of the Shire, cognizant of the big picture, even though he's been stung by a giant spider and poisoned to the point of being knocked out, plus stripped of his clothing and whipped in prison. All that, and he stays focused on the quest failing and dooming Middle-earth for everyone. He makes despair look rather noble.


CuriousG
Gondolin


36 mins ago

Post #16 of 17 (152 views)
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How does Faramir keep going? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, he does fall under the Black Breath, but that seems as much being poisoned as a spiritual affliction. I think Aragorn gives the answer in the Houses of Healing:


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‘Weariness, grief for his father’s mood, a wound, and over all the Black Breath,’ said Aragorn. ‘He is a man of staunch will,

Faramir, IMO, is one of those people blessed with deep reservoirs of willpower and resilience that are a match for anything.

It says a lot for Faramir that not only does he keep going, but he brings hope back to Eowyn (as he did for Frodo), so he's definitely a "giver."


CuriousG
Gondolin


32 mins ago

Post #17 of 17 (138 views)
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Eowyn's vulnerability [In reply to] Can't Post


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Eowyn also had nothing left to lose but to fight to the death and leave it all on the battle field. For her, her helplessness was rooted in the fact of not feeling useful in her life in Rohan and not taken seriously. How else do you think Eowyn had gotten to this point?

While there are a lot of factors contributing to Eowyn's hopelessness, as you point out, I keep thinking that not only was she attracted to Aragorn when he showed up in Rohan, she attributed all sorts of "Rescue Me" hopes to him: he wasn't just a possible handsome boyfriend with great prospects, he was supposed to rescue her from loneliness, a decadent court, a life of drudgery, etc. Piling all those "rescue me" needs on someone is always doomed to fail, and I think that dug the pit of despair that much deeper for her: "Aragorn can't rescue me, no one can." But Faramir gave her a grounding experience later, and she'd grown enough by then to be ready to welcome what he could give.


 
 

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