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Junesong
Rohan
May 23, 2:08pm
Post #1 of 32
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"...but another ring was made..."
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Rewatching ROP in anticipation has lead me to re-reading the various Tolkien stories about the 2nd age. (Including the ones with protected rights)
From what I can gather from Gandalf and Elrond's words in Fellowship, and from the essay "Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age" I can't find exactly WHEN the one ring was made.
Am I missing something obvious?
Secondly - despite the canonical answer - in which season do you think we'll see the creation of the one?
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 23, 4:30pm
Post #2 of 32
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The 3 Elven rings were made in 1590.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on May 23, 4:31pm)
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AshNazg
Grey Havens
May 23, 6:46pm
Post #3 of 32
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The one ring might be in the trailer...
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We see Sauron surrounded by elven guards and then he does this hand twist thing... Not sure what's happening but in the background they all seem to be mind-controlled by him to attack eachother as he does this? The trailers dialogue also talks about his ability to "creep into the mind"
If you pause the shot of his hands twisting there's a suspicious blurring on his left ring finger that isn't caused by motion blur. The trailer is frustratingly low resolution, hopefully we get a 4k trailer sometime. But it looks like they've airbrushed something out of that shot.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on May 23, 6:47pm)
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Junesong
Rohan
May 23, 7:05pm
Post #4 of 32
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I should have said, In what sequence was THE ONE made? Was it made last? Was it made between the 3 being made and the others? Just curious.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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AshNazg
Grey Havens
May 23, 8:32pm
Post #5 of 32
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Although I don't know what Eruonen's source is for those dates. If it's a wiki or Google then I tend to not trust it.
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Narvi
Lorien
May 23, 9:04pm
Post #6 of 32
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two chronologies (if we can call them that)
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The sequence in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":
1.) "Many rings" are made by and for Elves but with Sauron's assistance. No rings for Dwarves or Men are envisioned in this original scheme. This appears to have been a multi-year endeavor. The Three are forged last, possessed the greatest power, and were specifically used for "ward[ing] off the decays of time and postpon[ing] the weariness of the world". Hence the weird prehistoric vibe that Frodo detects in Lorien. The show appears to get this spot-on, notwithstanding the mithril tomfoolery and accelerated aging.
[1.5] Contradiction to the above: apparently Celebrimbor alone forged the Three (this stated out of sequence in the narrative, after the Three are hidden). This directly contradicts the notion that the elves were unable to forge rings of power on their own, unless we assume that Celebrimbor was implicitly excluded from this rule.
2.) Sauron forges the One (in Mordor, in secret). Originally the One Ring was intended to dominate only these "lesser" Elven Rings (no rings for Dwarves or Men are envisioned). As soon as he put it on his finger, the jig was up. No more lesser-ring-forging. The elves remove the rings from their fingers.
3.) War of the Elves and Sauron. Sauron seized all but three of the original elven rings. The Elves are incapable of forging rings of power without Sauron's assistance. The Wise are somehow able to conceal the Three and use them in secret. How they manage to do this is unclear. The text seems to imply that it is the character of their bearers that enables this. This seems a convenient way of patching a plot-hole.
4.) Sauron gathers up and doles out the remaining rings of power to the other peoples of Middle-earth. He allocates 7 for dwarves and 9 for men. We have to presume, barring the existence of other "peoples" of Middle-earth who received rings, that the "many" original rings of power in fact numbered only 19, plus the One. This somewhat bums me out. I prefer to imagine that there were many lesser rings, most of which simply weren't powerful enough to register on Sauron's agenda.
The Tale of Years (Appendix B to RotK) provides a better relative chronology, albeit one without precise dates until the War of the Elves and Sauron begins:
c. 1500 Elves begin forging rings in Eregion
c. 1590 Elves forge the Three (the last of the Lesser Rings)
c. 1600 Sauron forges and puts on the One. Celebrimbor (specifically) perceives his treachery.
1693 The War of the Elves and Sauron begins; the Three are Hidden.
1695 Invasion of Eriador; Gil-galad send Elrond to assist the elves of Eregion
1697 Sack of Eregion; doors of Moria shut; retreat of the Noldor & foundation of Imladris
1699 Eriador is overrun
1700 Tar-Minastir brings Numenorean armada to Lindon and defeats Sauron.
1701 Sauron driven from Eriador; "peace for a long while" in the Westlands
c. 1800 Numenorean colonization; "shadow falls on Numenor"
2251 Rebellion & division of the Numenoreans; the Nine appear for the first time as the Nazgul (presumably having received the rings much earlier, prior to withering into proper wraiths).
Much else happens in the following centuries, including the second defeat of Sauron and his travel to Numenor. "The Shadow" does not appear to involve Sauron, although its appearance shortly after the latter's defeat gives me pause...
There is quite a lot of Ring-lore scattered throughout Book 1 of FotR, some of which might further contradict this information (which was, after all, composed years after FotR itself).
If I remember correctly, Demosthenes collected a compendium of ring-lore drawing on all available sources. I'm not sure where this is posted--it was shared on this board at some point a couple of years ago, I believe).
(This post was edited by Narvi on May 23, 9:11pm)
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AshNazg
Grey Havens
May 23, 9:22pm
Post #7 of 32
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How did they conceal the three
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The Wise are somehow able to conceal the Three and use them in secret. How they manage to do this is unclear. The text seems to imply that it is the character of their bearers that enables this. This seems a convenient way of patching a plot-hole.
You say the elves used their rings in secret. Used them to do what exactly? I thought they kept their rings hidden and unused until after the One Ring was lost?
As for concealing.. the three elven rings were invisible. Only other ring bearers could see them, and even then probably only when the wearer wanted you to. Frodo couldn't see Gandalf's ring until after Sauron was defeated, when it was safe to reveal it again. Sam could not see Galadriel's ring, just a star through her fingers.
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Narvi
Lorien
May 23, 9:34pm
Post #8 of 32
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I'm just paraphrasing and intermittently quoting Tolkien's prose. His account in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" is very brief and seems to contradict itself at certain points. The question of the "use" of the Three is particularly problematic. Apparently the Wise never used them "openly" for fear of revealing their powers to Sauron. However, merely possessing them appears to have been sufficient to enable their bearers to wield the powers of preservation that shielded the Havens, Rivendell, and Lorien. I would call that a passive use, but certainly it must qualify as a "use" allthesame, and is singled out by Tolkien as their particular power (the one that Sauron most coveted). I suppose "open use" must designate a more mundane power akin to those of the other lesser rings, such as power on the battlefield.
(This post was edited by Narvi on May 23, 9:44pm)
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Narvi
Lorien
May 23, 10:46pm
Post #9 of 32
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Here is the lore as communicated by Gandalf to Frodo in chapter 2 of book 1 of FotR, "The Shadow of the Past":
1.) The smiths of Eregion forged many "Elven-rings". The "lesser rings" were distinct from the "Rings of Power". This must be where I got it in my head that the Gwaith-i-Mirdain forged more than just the 19. This seems to contradict the relevant portion of "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age".
2.) Gandalf says nothing of Sauron's involvement in the creation of the lesser and greater rings when introducing the topic, even while he describes their ill effects. Although this is clarified later in respect to the so-called "Great Rings", we never find out whether Sauron was involved in the forging of the lesser magic-rings. He does note that even the lesser rings are "dangerous for mortals", but does not explain why, either from an ethical or physiological standpoint.
3.) Gandalf here also distinguishes between the limited ring-lore possessed by the Wise and more specific information on the One. I suppose it's germane here to note that the "Wise" are the Elven ringbearers and their associates: they would have intimate knowledge of their own rings and perhaps some knowledge of their forging. However, the way that Gandalf phrases this makes it sound like a rather superficial knowledge for a matter so pertinent to their mission as guardians of the Three. Saruman, who is the only member of the White Council to demonstrate any curiosity in "ring-lore" before Detective Gandalf takes up the case, established himself as the authority on the subject, despite not possessing one of the Great Rings himself. Speaking of which: what exactly was the "ring-lore" possessed by Saruman? Surely it wasn't just a record of the whereabouts of the 19 Great Rings. Did he have access to some sort of tome recording elements of their creation? Gandalf notes that he sought "the lost secrets of their making". Did he ever find them? What other kind of "lore" would fall under this bracket?
4.) You could apparently *choose* to turn yourself invisible when wielding one of the Great Rings, as if it were some sort of ability that could be triggered by the user's mind. I suppose this explains why we never hear of the bearers of the Three or Seven doing so. Presumably this is one of the "open" uses of the Great Rings that the bearers of the Three avoid. This leaves open the question of how they managed to turn the rings themselves invisible.
5.) Apparently Sauron ("one Power in this world") was the only individual who knew everything that there was to know about the Rings of Power and their "effects" at the end of the Third Age. What exactly did this entail, aside from the secrets of their creation? Was he the only one who knew the identity and fate of the bearers of the Seven and the Nine?
Sidenote: during this entire part of Gandalf and Frodo's discussion, a prior conversation is hinted at having occurred the previous evening about the rise of Sauron. It's an odd bit of narratological trickery, and I don't understand its purpose. Suspense? Gandalf and Frodo know who the "one Power" is, and refer to him in their conversation, but the reader is left in the dark until the ring is finally tested and revealed to be the One.
6.) The concealment of the Three and the allocation of the Seven and Nine closely correspond with the narrative in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age".
7.) After his defeat by the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, Sauron believed the One to have been destroyed by the elves (odd--didn't he realize that a Numenorean prince cut it from his hand?). The notion that he could just soldier on in its absence seems an absurd contradiction when compared to the consequences of the Ring's actual destruction at the end of RotK. Surely Gandalf is mistaken here. If Sauron could accomplish all that he accomplished during the Third Age in the absence of the One (regardless of his actual possession of it), what would stop him from returning in the Fourth Age? I suppose Tolkien did toy with this idea. It just makes the destruction of the One seem profoundly anticlimactic.
(This post was edited by Narvi on May 23, 10:46pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 24, 6:36pm
Post #10 of 32
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From :The Fall of Numenor by Brian Sibley
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 24, 8:08pm
Post #11 of 32
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I should have said, In what sequence was THE ONE made? Was it made last? Was it made between the 3 being made and the others? Just curious.
I find he answers in The Lord of the Rings, Appendix B "The Tale of Years".
c. 1500 The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin forging of the Rings of Power.
c. 1590 The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.
c. 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 24, 8:09pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
May 25, 8:41pm
Post #12 of 32
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The Tale of Years (LOTR App. B)
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That is the real source, not Sibley compilation
In any event, the sequence runs like this:
c. 1500 The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.
c. 1590 The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.
c. 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.
So the Elves (with Sauron's help) begin forging the Rings of Power around 1500. Then around 90 years after that, they forge the Three, and 10 years after that Sauron forges the one.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 25, 9:17pm
Post #13 of 32
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It is the same information! What is the point?
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Are you saying Sibley is wrong when the dates are identical?
I assume he is a capable writer who records things correctly.
This one-upmanship drives me crazy.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on May 25, 9:19pm)
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Narvi
Lorien
May 25, 9:39pm
Post #14 of 32
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It didn’t seem to be one-upmanship…
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… so much as clarification. The Fall of Numenor compiles information from a many different sources, some of which were composed long before or long after the first edition of The Lord of the Rings. The details contradict themselves at times. The fact that it comes from the Tale of Years is relevant because this means it was intended as a canonical chronicle. The same cannot be said for some of the other sources for Sibley’s compilation, such as Unfinished Tales.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 25, 9:40pm
Post #15 of 32
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And the dates are the same as I reported
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Narvi
Lorien
May 25, 10:03pm
Post #16 of 32
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Perhaps I didn’t state my point clearly
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It’s helpful to know the ultimate/primary source of information when assessing its relationship to other information in the primary sources. Compilations of information, such as Sibley’s The Fall of Numenor and the Encyclopedia of Arda, are full of useful information, but it’s easy to miss the distinction between various bits of information when it’s all presented together on a page. Those distinctions are important when assessing variable chronologies. I didn’t intend it as a jab against Sibley or yourself for consulting his compilation as a secondary source of this information. I’m just trying to point out that it’s helpful to know the actual primary source in discussions like these.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
May 25, 10:28pm
Post #17 of 32
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Sibley uses The Tale of Years (Chronology of the Westlands) Second Age
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in other words, the real source,
(This post was edited by Eruonen on May 25, 10:29pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
May 25, 11:52pm
Post #18 of 32
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As I noted in my other post, the chronology as published in The Tale of Years is:
the sequence runs like this:
c. 1500 The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.
c. 1590 The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.
c. 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.
So, the Elves (with Sauron's help) begin forging the Rings of Power around 1500. Then around 90 years after that, they forge the Three, and 10 years after that Sauron forges the one.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
May 26, 3:14am
Post #19 of 32
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I'm the type of reader who wants to know the physics, chemistry and biology behind things, even if they're fictional physics, chemistry and biology.
For example:
How is the spirit transferred into the metal?
How do the rings communicate and influence their wearers, or owners if that's all that is necessary? If only the owner, how does it know?
How is the effect imbued into the bearer from the metal? Can metal have consciousness? How?
If many bearers, how does it know how much effect it should have on each without knowing how many there will be? Or does if have an infinitely supply of energy and affect each equally and not prorated?
What does "perceive" mean? Is it telepathy or pure observation?
For that matter, I would have liked the "devices of Saruman" enumerated to make them clear.
I don't expect answers where they were not intended. But I like my terms grounded, concrete. Tolkien was a little vague. ;)
I know this has nothing to do with timelines, but the words within it remind me of what they represent.
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AshNazg
Grey Havens
May 26, 10:42am
Post #20 of 32
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I'm pretty sure they had to be wearing the rings...
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Since taking the rings off was enough to anger Sauron into attacking, we can assume the Ring bearers have to be wearing the rings to feel their effects.
Of course wearing it on your finger with direct skin-contact is most effective, but wearing it on a chain or keeping it in your pocket will also have it's effects. Think of it like a magnetic field.
Everything has energy, even a painting has something of the artist's soul in it that you can identify. Sauron knew how to concentrate this energy with magic and inscriptions. Everything he created; directly (such as the One Ring) or indirectly (such as the three Elf Rings), were a part of his purpose and when he made that purpose apparent, by wearing the One Ring, it would have been like a shock-wave to anyone wearing even the lesser rings. Not because the rings themselves are conscious or communicating, but because by wearing a ring of power you have yourself become a part of Sauron's purpose - you wearing the ring is an indirect creation by Sauron - so much so that if you were to wear it long enough he could control you entirely.
That's how I see it anyway, I'd be interested to see other interpretations.
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Junesong
Rohan
May 27, 11:53am
Post #21 of 32
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Thanks for all the helpful answers.
If we can safely guess we're getting the sack of Eregion in S2 - then we can make some assumptions.
If the show stays true to the books, the one ring must be created before the sack - because its Sauron being angered by the elves "being aware of him" that makes them take off and hide their rings - leading to the war. This implies that Sauron creates his ring this season too.
HOWEVER - my personal theory is that they'll want to stretch out the suspense for the creation of the one, as it's almost the climax of the whole five season show.
In that vein, I think the show needs to jump around a bit in time using flashbacks etc. The second season seems to building to this.
Perhaps we'll start to get evidence of the ring this season, but not really see it or it's forging until later. (My guess is still season 4, as I think they'll be following the ring verse each season.)
That might be perfect - because the 3rd season will be about his corruption of Numenor and his creation of the Nazgul, and then in season 4 we can some flashbacks to his creation of the one - which likely began way back with his failed attempts in the ice fortress - culminating in whatever he learns/discovers with Celebrimbor which leads him back to Mordor to make it.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
May 27, 7:04pm
Post #22 of 32
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The show will not follow the books
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It has already deviated too much to do so. In the books, the creation of the Three was the culmination of almost a century of work developing the lore and skill of creating rings of power by the Elves, aided by Sauron in his guise as Annatar, which then led to creation of the One by Sauron. In the show, the Three were created first, almost by accident (I won't even mention the ridiculousness about the Mithril component). Now we have to have some way of developing the rest of the rings (probably it will just be the 7 and 9 without any mention of all of the lesser rings), before we get to Sauron creating the One. So there is no way that the show can follow the books.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Junesong
Rohan
May 27, 7:30pm
Post #23 of 32
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I think it's possible to read into the trailer that we are getting some pretty important flashbacks during season 2 to events that happened before and during season 1 that will likely change our perception of the timeline.
I think it's possible that we'll see that Annatar WAS among the elves for a while messing around with attempts at accessing/controling the flesh and unseen world.
I agree that it's likely the show will dispense with the idea of "lesser rings" just to keep things simple for the audience but I don't think that when the dust settles the creation of the three will merely be what was presented in episode 8.
Maybe wishful thinking on my part - but rewatching season one is only making me more sure that they were always playing with at least A LITTLE misdirection.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Wainrider
Rivendell
May 28, 3:08am
Post #24 of 32
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"There are many magic rings in this world Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly!"
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DwellerInDale
Rohan
May 28, 4:04am
Post #25 of 32
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As has been suggested before, if "Lord Annatar" was in attendance at the "Elf Lords Only" meeting referenced in passing in season 1 when we first meet Elrond, that closes one loophole: how Sauron can now return to Eregion and help forge the remaining rings.
Here is an idea for a second flashback: "Lord Annatar" is shown in attendance during Gil-Galad's ceremony honoring Galadriel and her company, and thus knew that soon Galadriel would take a ship west. This partially closes a second loophole: how "Halbrand" knew where to find Galadriel...
I think it's possible to read into the trailer that we are getting some pretty important flashbacks during season 2 to events that happened before and during season 1 that will likely change our perception of the timeline.
Don't mess with my favorite female elves.
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