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Junesong
Rohan
Jan 22, 12:50pm
Post #26 of 50
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Sounds like a magic horse to me
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"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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TFP
Lorien
Jan 22, 1:01pm
Post #27 of 50
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I think that one thing this discussion certainly highlights is that it's unwise to probe too deeply into the 'family tree' that gets you from Nahar to the Mearas in much the same way as it's unwise to probe too deeply into the tree that gets you from Ungoliant [who was herself a bit of a question mark in terms of being a Maia or not etc] to the Mirkwood spiders. A master worldbuilder retconner like* Tolkien could probably have fleshed out something plausible but Amazon's hacks [I say this as someone who thought the show good in parts & definitely wants it to succeed], yeah, not so much.
* - I use this formulation despite the obvious point that there aren't other worldbuilders on that level.
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Junesong
Rohan
Jan 22, 1:38pm
Post #28 of 50
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"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Felagund
Rohan
Jan 22, 5:33pm
Post #29 of 50
(2045 views)
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Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jan 22, 6:29pm
Post #30 of 50
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IF Simon Tolkien is involved it seems he is hellbent on destroying his grandfather's legacy.
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Of course, the literary legacy won't be harmed but Simon's involvement demonstrates his severe lack of understanding.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 22, 6:30pm)
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Felagund
Rohan
Jan 22, 7:48pm
Post #31 of 50
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Whilst browsing Unfinished Tales in aid of a different mission, I was reminded that Tolkien depicted Númenórean horses as something special too, just to throw in another possibility! From 'A Description of Númenor':
They [Númenórean horses] were trained to hear and answer calls from a great distance, and it is said in old tales that where there was great love between men and women and their favourite steeds they could be summoned at need by thought alone.
Given the emphasis in TRoP on Númenórean cavalry, not to mention Galadriel's slow-mo ride along the beaches of Númenor, it's not hard to imagine the showrunners going down this route. It doesn't personally appeal but if they're going to insist on including Shadofax, I'm defo interested in how and why.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Felagund
Rohan
Jan 22, 7:55pm
Post #32 of 50
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With regard to:
13. Sauron tells the dwarves he apprenticed under Aulë, so they welcome him with open arms.
... If correct, I wonder if we'll hear 'Mahal', the Khuzdul name for Aulë. Perhaps on the lips of Sauron, as a means of currying favour with the Dwarves; or a comment from the Dwarves along the lines of "We know your former master as Mahal."
It's a name that only appears in The Silmarillion but there are rumours all over again of Amazon securing some rights in that direction, so who knows?
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Jan 23, 2:14am
Post #33 of 50
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Of course, the literary legacy won't be harmed but Simon's involvement demonstrates his severe lack of understanding.
I wouldn't mistake greed, opportunism, or the want of power for lack of comprehension or intelligence. It's better to not underestimate people and so to know that they just don't care about you or us and your or our point of view.
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Junesong
Rohan
Jan 23, 12:57pm
Post #34 of 50
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I don't think licensing works of fiction to be reimagined as adaptations or whatever else is greedy, or opportunistic. It's literally as mundane as everyday business. Tolkien didn't like the idea of adaptations - and could, in his life, have been one of those authors who never allowed it, even after death.
He wasn't one of those authors.
The stories are cool. People want to play with them and make new things. Fans want to see it.
Maybe he's excited to see it too.
Maybe its US who insist on seeing greed, opportunism and desire for power in everything Amazon etc does.
As a book fan, I hate some of the adaptations. I think they're making a mockery. But I'm still glad they exist. I'm still glad its a playground we can play in.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Jan 23, 3:01pm
Post #35 of 50
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Would you say Simon "demonstrates his severe lack of understanding" in his actions? What's his motivation from your point of view?
I wrote to not base disagreeable actions as a judgement on intelligence or the ability to comprehend a thing. We might agree there, if not about the motivation. Simon has been characterized as a more careless descendent.
The thoughts in my comment were meant far more broadly in contemporary issues than just Tolkien's works and this context, though I think they apply in microcosm. Attributing intelligence to actions makes a judgement on intent, and encourages folks to be less dismissive of real threats when something needs to be taken more seriously.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jan 23, 3:56pm
Post #36 of 50
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.....it is apparent that Simon does not like the lore as he criticized Peter Jackson as being "too faithful" to the books. He seems to think his literary ideas are better than his grandfather's as he has consulted on ROP so his hand in this mess is very apparent. He had a falling out with his father Christopher over the estate and direction of the licensing etc. Now, he just seems focused on churning the works for cash.
“A lesser son of great sires am I”
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 23, 4:01pm)
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Junesong
Rohan
Jan 23, 4:00pm
Post #37 of 50
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I would not say that Simon is demonstrating anything of the kind.
If I was Simon Tolkien I would roll my eyes at the idea that the internet was trying to determine my 'motivation"
The reality is that we all have different opinions on this issue. We have different ideas about what "faithful" and "faithless" adaptations would look like. Some of us feel like ALL adaptation is inherently faithless, others of us feel the opposite - that adaptation is a continuation, or a way of interacting creatively with the things we love.
Some of us see all decisions as financially motivated, or cynically motivated. Some of us see ROP (and the people making it) as soley antagonistic to the fans. Some of us talk like they are ACTIVELY trying to tarnish Tolkien's legacy, or as if they're ambivalent to it.
Whatever the reality is, it's out of our reach. In Simon's position I would likely act the same - some of the other posters on these boards would likely act very differently.
If we all had magic wands to wave and could make or unmake whatever adaptations we liked with whatever budgets and "faithfulness" we like would still result in grumbling from other fans and accusations of faithful and faithless action.
We're fans. We likely don't agree on anything. We don't need to.
Simon Tolkien seems to like the idea of expanding on his father's ideas about the 2nd age, and seems to believe there's an audience for it. He seems to be supportive of Amazon's efforts so far, and to be equal parts impressed and excited to see what they do next. I feel the same way. And I don't stand to get a cent from Amazon or anyone else. I just GENUINELY like what I've seen so far and am excited to see more. I'm really glad they're adapting ROP and I'm really happy with Amazon's choices so far (more or less)
I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling these things. Even if your name happens to be Simon Tolkien.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jan 23, 4:02pm
Post #38 of 50
(1925 views)
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"In Simon's position I would likely act the same"
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That says a lot.....and explains your positions.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jan 23, 4:06pm
Post #39 of 50
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"Simon Tolkien seems to like the idea of expanding on his father's ideas about the 2nd age,"
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....expand or totally trash? The latter is demonstrated by ROP.
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Junesong
Rohan
Jan 23, 5:34pm
Post #40 of 50
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Apparently one man's expand is another man's totally trash.
Must be the internet.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Jan 23, 5:34pm
Post #41 of 50
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If the rumor is true, and not a honey pot planted by the production itself, that at least some rights to the Silmarillion have been acquired, it should help, I think. But if true, why not proudly broadcast the acquisition - now? It would be fantastic PR. I remain skeptical and give the article no weight.
I read the Expanse books. It's very interesting to me to see the series writers' choices and compare them with the books. It's more like the books simply add more depth; things that happened we didn't see in the series and vice versa. The series adds some new content, drops some from the books, and combines things to make something more dramatic, more confrontational, and of course more visual. Not once have I been offended or disagreed with the choices they made. The series has diversity in all aspects of things like gender, sexuality, those in positions of power, and more. And it is faithful. Nor has the show attacked its fans; called them names or marginalized them in response to criticism. I attribute that to the care and quality of the writing, the character of the writers, and respect for the material.
So unlike other productions that seem to be run more with a sense of anger than fun and enjoyment, where "the message is more important than the story."
(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Jan 23, 5:36pm)
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Junesong
Rohan
Jan 23, 6:33pm
Post #42 of 50
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I'm happy for you! I feel exactly the same way about ROP.
Some of us feel like the production is anti-fans, or heavy handed with its DEI, or disinterested in Tolkien's original lore. Some of us don't. At all.
I'm one of the fans who don't. At all.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jan 23, 8:36pm
Post #43 of 50
(1879 views)
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I have no confidence the rights to the Silmarillion would have any
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positive impact with this bunch of poor fan fiction writers. They would massacre the Silmarillion - rip certain names and places - while distorting the entire corpus.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 24, 4:31am
Post #44 of 50
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There is a LOT to unpack in the article. Supposedly, around 40% of it has been verified. Even so, there are many things here that I hope do NOT bear out.
14. Sauron had a son who Adar killed.
15. Horse lovers rejoice! A dedicated “bottle” episode with little dialog will tell the story of the first Mearas (Editor: these are the great horses of the Rohirrim), Felaróf, and introduce Shadowfax.
16. Gandalf (Meteor Man) meets Shadowfax.
17. Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are in an episode.
18. They are played by the same actor and actress as Melkor/Morgoth and Ungoliant from Episode 1.
19. The pair, as Bombadil and Goldberry, are serving out a punishment from Mandos per “a long-held fan theory” (Editor: this “long-held fan theory” is news to us.).
Okay, #17 doesn't bother me too much except in connection with the rumors that follow it.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 24, 4:33am)
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Jan 24, 4:46am
Post #45 of 50
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14. Sauron had a son who Adar killed.
So, it's a soap opera then.
Not to mention questions about how the Ainur procreate. I don't think Tolkien ever described their naughty bits. I look forward to all this being answered in detail.
Maybe this is the joke part.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 24, 5:24am
Post #46 of 50
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14. Sauron had a son who Adar killed. So, it's a soap opera then. Not to mention questions about how the Ainur procreate. I don't think Tolkien ever described their naughty bits. I look forward to all this being answered in detail. Maybe this is the joke part.
Well, we do have the union between Thingol and Melian. But Sauron, who would think that his reign would be eternal, would have no reason to sire an heir.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Jan 24, 6:55am
Post #47 of 50
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Not to mention questions about how the Ainur procreate. I don't think Tolkien ever described their naughty bits.
You see, when a Mommy Ainu and a Daddy Ainu love each other very much... 
In all seriousness, we know from the case of Thingol and Melian that the Ainur were, under the right circumstances, capable of sexual reproduction with Incarnates. In the philosophical terminology of Arda, an Incarnate is a being which by its nature has both a physical body and a soul; this category includes Elves, Men, Dwarves, etc. The Ainur, by contrast, are naturally disembodied spirits who have the ability to manifest their own bodies, called fanar (singular fana) in Quenya, which "were physical or had the properties of material substances, i.e. were not transparent, could move other objects, cast shadows (if not themselves shining) and were resisted by or offered resistance to other physical things" (PE 17, p. 176). A fana could be many different things, and an individual Ainu could assume different fanar at different times, though in some cases it became more difficult or even impossible to change between forms (Morgoth eventually lost the ability entirely).
The Valar, and some of the Maiar, spent much of their time in bodies similar to those of Elves and Men. One such similarity is that these bodies were sexually differentiated: "[W]hen they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice,[1] even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby." (TS, Ainulindalë) We can thus infer that Melian conceived and gave birth of Lúthien in the same manner as Incarnate women. To the best of my memory, Melian is the only specific example from the later stages of Tolkien's creative life[2] of an Ainu with a biological child, but Tolkien entertained the possibility that corrupted Maiar were among the ancestors of Orks (HoMe X, Myths Transformed, Text VIII), and given how little we know of the Maiar in general there may have been other examples. However, it's unlikely Sauron was one, since use of the fana for procreation tended to result in an Ainu becoming stuck in a single form (Ibid). While Sauron eventually lost his natural shapeshifting ability, it was for a different reason.[3]
---
[1] Curiously, this statement anticipates the conceptual distinction between gender identity and gender expression, more commonly associated with tendencies in Western intellectual history that postdate Tolkien's death by several decades.
[2] In The Book of Lost Tales, written forty or more years before Parma Eldalamberon 17 and Myths Transformed, the Valar themselves had children, though not with Incarnates. This concept was abandoned, but most of the characters were not. Fionwë and Erinti, son and daughter of Manwë and Varda, became Eönwë and Ilmarë, Maiar associated with the same; Oromë and Nessa, son and daughter of Aulë and Yavanna, remained siblings but were promoted to full Valar status; and Kosomot, son of Melko[r] and Ulbandi, became Gothmog Lord of Balrogs while his mother disappeared from the legendarium (as did Nielíqui, daughter of Oromë, and Telimektar, son of Tulkas).
[3] After the Downfall of Númenor, Sauron "was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men [...] he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible" (TS, Akallabêth).
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ETA: Believe it or not, a (90 minutes late!) cross-post with Otaku-sempai. 
(This post was edited by Eldy on Jan 24, 6:58am)
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TFP
Lorien
Jan 24, 12:12pm
Post #48 of 50
(1787 views)
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I suppose they hinted at it something like this in S01E06, where Adar, at spearpoint, smirkingly asked a pained-looking Halbrand, "...did I cause someone you love pain... [dramatic pause] perhaps [further dramatic pause] a child...?". Though this line could easily have been a red herring and/or the sole source of the supposed leak on 4chan. And I guess Episode 4 did do a fairly deep dive on the theme of father-child relationships.
The idea of a fallen angel succumbing to temptations of the flesh would hardly be a first in [mostly schlocky] fiction. It's a definite pseudo-Biblical theme within Tolkien that the Istari are meant to be exemplars of the right/virtuous kind of earthbound incarnacy & that I guess Morgoth, Sauron, & the Balrogs are very much breaking the rules.
Melian, Ungoliant [as mentioned upthread] and I guess Glaurung all had offspring, though the latter two weren't definitively Maiar.
(This post was edited by TFP on Jan 24, 12:23pm)
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Junesong
Rohan
Jan 24, 12:44pm
Post #49 of 50
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My gut is telling me that the "Sauron has a child that Adar killed" stuff was generated wholesale from the imagination of some random fans after watching episode 6.
The whole list from 4chan is full of stuff that would only sound like a good idea to a Tolkien fan who spends too much time online.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Jan 24, 5:41pm
Post #50 of 50
(1753 views)
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So, it's a demigod soap opera.
And per Junesong's evaluation of the article, which seems most likely, why would TheOneRing.net lower itself to Doomcock levels to manufacture and publish this honey pot?
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