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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 18, 2:28pm
Post #1 of 50
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SPY REPORT: The Rings of Power Season 2 to expand on Sauron in huge new ways
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Article by Justin Sewell on the TORn homepage: https://www.theonering.net/...on-in-huge-new-ways/.
Some of these rumors can't possibly be true unless someone at Amazon has gone mad. For example: "Gandalf (Meteor Man) meets Shadowfax."
In any sane world, Shadowfax couldn't possibly have been born in the Second Age.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 18, 2:31pm)
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OldestDaughter
Rohan
Jan 18, 3:40pm
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Some of these rumors are very cool, some not so much
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The ones about Gandalf are weird to me, and the ones about Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. While I'd love to see those two, I just don't see them being entered in this show, at least not like that. But the ones the rumors about the Valar would be interesting to see, and if they have more rights to the Silmarillion, then they can find more ways to be respectful of that lore instead of making up certain things.
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
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Junesong
Rohan
Jan 18, 3:48pm
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I'll take it with a grain of salt
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A grain of salt the size of the iceberg that sunk the Titanic
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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OldestDaughter
Rohan
Jan 18, 3:53pm
Post #4 of 50
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Hopefully we will get some updates from more
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reliable sources, or even a teaser and some pictures soon from Amazon.
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
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Silvered-glass
Lorien
Jan 18, 6:01pm
Post #5 of 50
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That Tom Bombadil plot twist sounds like something I've been theorizing to myself lately. However it's not identical and has significant differences in some ways.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Jan 18, 6:09pm
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In any sane world, Shadowfax couldn't possibly have been born in the Second Age.
In this world, writers have become faithless to the source materials they are adapting. Not just Tolkien's work, but just about everything, it seems. So whether this is "fake news" or not, it's sadly and entirely believable of contemporary writers.
As far as Tom Bombadil, I'd actually enjoy bringing him into the scenery. He could be done seriously with gravitas without the singing and skipping around. But perhaps that's just as faithless.
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Silvered-glass
Lorien
Jan 18, 6:40pm
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I've been thinking that Shadowfax is actually immortal (it even has precedent in Greek myth), so having him be around in the Second Age isn't a problem. The real problem is the plot content of the spoiler. Like how is that going to result in the LotR status quo unless Meteor Man is really Saruman after all?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 18, 9:09pm
Post #8 of 50
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Even if Shadowfax is immortal or even extremely long-lived, the Mearas began with Felaróf and his descendants. circa the year 2500 of the Third Age. Shadowfax had to be sired sometime after that year, certainly not in the Second Age.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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TFP
Lorien
Jan 19, 11:53am
Post #9 of 50
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A few idle thoughts on these suggestions (sorry, I don't know how to do the white text but hopefully the thread title suffices to ward off anyone who doesn't want to be spoiled)
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(1) I think Tolkien implied that Valinorean animals were immortal... but... Shadowfax, yeuch, I don't know... pretty much of Tolkien's really deep thought on mortality seems to me only really applicable to humanoid creatures... And it's not thematically important but to me it's quite a nice part of the story that Gandalf meets Shadowfax for the first time upon his escape from Orthanc...
(2) Sauron having a son - not ridiculous, I suppose. In the books Melian is able to procreate with the children.
(3) The Sauron/Aule/dwarves link might be a nice touch and IMO v plausible, even in season 1 they mentioned Aule at least once.
(4) Bombadil - could be fun but would need to be done *really* well, something I'm not sure the showmakers have much of a track record for.
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Junesong
Rohan
Jan 19, 12:57pm
Post #10 of 50
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Let me preface this post by saying that I dont' believe most of the spy report rumours. They all read like something fans want, not something the show would want. Just from all the time I've spent watching the first season.
With that said, I think this Shadowfax discussion is a good microcosm for our greater ADAPTATION discussion that's been ongoing forevermore and will likely continue to go on and on long after you and I are dead.
Let's think of it this way:
If we want to put Shadowfax into a show like ROP, you can - but as you can see in just these few messages, it will open a can of worms with Tolkien lore. How old do Mearas live, and what makes them special, where do they originate, etc. Tolkien wrote some beautiful stuff and took time to fit it into a plausibility structure that took on a historic more than mythical vibe. It's why we love it. It's why we're here.
My argument is and always has been, that if you want to put Shadowfax into a show like ROP you should be able to do so. The Jackson movies established a pretty good precedent for interpreting Tolkien in anyway you want to make a compelling narrative. If you want to just call Shadowfax, "a magic horse" and have him arrive in the 2nd age, a large number of fans (if it's done well) will like it with barely a shrug.
Those of us who will nitpick it to death on message boards will never be pleased no matter what they do.
Most people hate ROP, but even those of us who love it will admit that it's definitely the kind of show where they'll just say, "he's a magic horse."
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 19, 1:42pm
Post #11 of 50
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And I hate it that you are. Nothing personal though!!!
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Annael
Immortal
Jan 19, 3:18pm
Post #12 of 50
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my first reaction was "April Fool!"
my second, that this is a deliberate attempt to make the purists' heads explode.
Whatever; I laughed through the whole article.
I am a dreamer of words, of written words.
-- Gaston Bachelard
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 19, 3:29pm
Post #13 of 50
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...remember that Justin also (allegedly) supports the Haladriel ship.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Junesong
Rohan
Jan 19, 4:33pm
Post #14 of 50
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I don't think we'll see Shadowfax in ROP. But if we do, he'll definitely be a "magic horse"
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Jan 19, 6:43pm
Post #15 of 50
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...he'll definitely be a "magic horse"
You watch: They'll put a horn on him.
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Junesong
Rohan
Jan 19, 6:52pm
Post #16 of 50
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That would break the internet for sure
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Jan 19, 7:16pm
Post #17 of 50
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They all read like something fans want...
Yeah, I very quickly skimmed with a 15-second read, but what I saw gives me a strong urge to watch it... I sense optimism being dashed on the rocks of reality.
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Silvered-glass
Lorien
Jan 19, 8:41pm
Post #18 of 50
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This is getting into deep Reading Room territory, but I don't think Shadowfax's sire or dam or date of birth are actually known. The much-delayed expanded and revised version of my Saruman theory touches this, so I should probably get it done at some point. It's pretty far along.
(This post was edited by Silvered-glass on Jan 19, 8:45pm)
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OldestDaughter
Rohan
Jan 19, 9:08pm
Post #19 of 50
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I literally thought about it being an April Fools joke too
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But then I remembered that we are only in January.
"Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed."
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Felagund
Rohan
Jan 19, 10:53pm
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The details aren't provided but there is helpful context in the 'House of Eorl' section of Appendix A to LotR. In the recounting of the tale of how Eorl tamed one of the mearas, the horse that came to be named Felaróf, the following is notable:
It was upon Felaróf that Eorl rode to the Feld of the Celebrant; for that horse proved as long-lived as Men, and so were his descendants. These were the mearas, who would bear no one but the King of the Mark or his sons, until the time of Shadowfax.
From this, I reckon it can reasonably be concluded that the mearas lived say 70-80 years ("as long-lived as Men"), and that it's implied that Shadofax was a descendant of Felaróf, born in the last decades of the Third Age.
As to what TRoP will do with this, I agree with the comments above that they might go for a "Remember Shadowfax from the film? Well Gandalf knew him from ages ago!" moment. The showrunners are obviously prepared to do their own thing, so maybe the text in Appendix A will guide them, maybe not. The challenge will be, if they go down the Shadowfax in the Second Age route, to make it work in the universe they're creating, via half-decent writing.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Silvered-glass
Lorien
Jan 19, 11:45pm
Post #21 of 50
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This could be a long discussion, but basically I think there is no reason to assume that Mearas = Felaróf's offspring. Rather, Mearas = special type of horse associated with Oromë, and Felaróf wasn't the only one back then. Shadowfax not considering even a king of Rohan good enough to carry can be explained by him being different.
I think the case with Mearas lifespan has probably do with life bonds. Tolkien in NoME mentions Arwen acquiring Aragorn's lifespan:
http://newboards.theonering.net/...post=1006732#1006732
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Felagund
Rohan
Jan 20, 1:50am
Post #22 of 50
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We only have a couple of references to specific mearas, Felaróf and Shadowfax, but yeah the latter does seem to stand out due to him bucking (no pun intended!) the trend by not allowing even the Kings of the Mark to ride him.
As to the offspring issue, I reckon this excerpt from the previously quoted passage is clear enough that the mearas were descended from Felaróf:
for that horse [Felaróf] proved as long-lived as Men, and so were his descendants. These were the mearas...
A further passage from the 'Riders of Rohan' chapter of LotR is also helpful to our understanding:
For Gandalf took the horse that is called Shadowfax, the most precious of all the king's steeds, chief of the Mearas, which only the Lord of the Mark may ride. For the sire of their race was the great horse of Eorl [Felaróf] that knew the speech of Men.
Again, the concept of who the mearas are descended from seems pretty clear - the "sire of their race" being singled out as Felaróf. But I'll come back to this in a moment!
The life bond idea is an interesting one and there certainly seems to be a specific bond to the House of Eorl - except, as you observe, in the case of Shadowfax. However, my interpretation of the mearas being "as long-lived as Men" is more along the lines of lineage, which Tolkien discusses briefly in Letter #268:
I should argue so: Shadowfax came of a special race being as it were an Elvish equivalent of ordinary horses: his 'blood' came from 'West over Sea'.
Which chimes with a further passage from Appendix A of LotR ('The House of Eorl'), and which I reckon you've also referred to indirectly:
Men said of them that Béma (whom the Eldar call Oromë) must have brought their sire from West over Sea
The lifespan of the mearas seems to me to be linked to 'blood' and descent rather than any specific relationship with Eorl or any other Lord of the Mark. And despite Tolkien's arguably loose typology in the letter, with mearas as the equivalent of Elves cf. normal horses and humans, the analogy doesn't appear to extend to the mearas being immortal. This seems ruled out by the specific reference to the mearas being "as long-lived as Men".
Combining all of the above, we have the statement that Felaróf was the sire of the race of mearas and the statement that there was some kind of ur-sire from Valinor. Speculatively, Oromë's own steed Nahar or perhaps slightly less grandly, the likes of Rochallor and the other steeds brought to Middle-earth from the West by the returning Noldor. I don't see these statements as mutually exclusive (although that paradigm isn't hard to find in Tolkien's writings!). The word mearas is specific to the ancestors of the Rohirrim, and appears to be derived by Tolkien from the Old English word for 'horses' - that language being an in-universe 'tell' for all things Rohan. In that sense, Felaróf can be seen as the sire of the royal herd of Rohan, hitherto called mearas by those who co-opted them, whilst also being regarded as having distant Valinorian ancestry.
This certainly allows plenty of room for speculation about other special horses roaming about. As for Shadowfax though, he's specified as of the mearas, so, by definition, is descended from Felaróf - at least using Tolkien's definition cited above.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Silvered-glass
Lorien
Jan 20, 12:06pm
Post #23 of 50
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This place doesn't allow for proper set theory notation, but basically you can have it so that all Y are part of set X but there are also Z that are part of X while not being part of Y, X in this case being the mearas, Y the tamed mearas of Rohan, descendants of Felaróf, and Z the mearas from elsewhere. The term mearas being Rohirric doesn't mean that it can't be applied to things that originate from outside Rohan, especially when the term probably would have been originally applied to the wild horses of the original homeland of the Rohirrim, some of which would have remained behind, wild as ever, when the Rohirrim migrated away.
Shadowfax being a more original sort of mearas would explain why it's so superior to the other horses in the book, including Snowmane. (Asfaloth might be the closest competition.) The mearas of Rohan have mixed with ordinary animals for generations, resulting in something above a normal horse but below the original mearas of Oromë. It's like Dúnedain and Elves. I think Shadowfax could have entered Rohan as a gift from Saruman. It is known that Saruman gave unspecified gifts to the Rohirrim when he moved to Orthanc, and a special horse would have been to the Rohirrim's liking. Saruman was planning to be stationary, so he could bear to give away his mount.
In the Greek mythology there is the concept of immortal horses, which Tolkien would have heard about and to which the mearas with their divine origin bear a resemblance that doesn't feel accidental. Like Arwen gave up her immortality for Aragorn and became mortal, so would have Felaróf given his immortality for Eorl. This interpretation adds a whole new layer of poignancy to the text.
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Felagund
Rohan
Jan 20, 1:13pm
Post #24 of 50
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I like how you put the 'mixing' of the various species / sub-species of horses. I only have a vague memory of doing sets and subsets in maths class at school, I have to admit though!
Interesting speculation on Saruman gifting Shadowfax to the Rohirrim. I'm not convinced the road needs to lead back to Saruman to explain Shadowfax but I know you have big plans for Saruman in other work you're preparing, so I'll look out for it then!
I've covered my interpretation of the lifespan of the mearas in previous replies, based on the text in Appendix A. So, while I don't agree with the claim that Felaróf was immortal (or indeed any other mearas for that matter, including Shadowfax), I reckon you're on to something when you characterise Felaróf as giving something up. Turning again to Appendix A:
"Felaróf I [Eorl] name you. You loved your freedom, and I do not blame you for that. But now you owe me a great weregild, and you shall surrender your freedom to me until your life's end."
The weregild being for the causing the death of Eorl' father, Léod. My reading of this is that Felaróf is forced to give up something but it's his freedom rather than immortality - of which there's no mention.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 21, 1:58am
Post #25 of 50
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Cliff "Quickbeam" Broadway has offered his own analysis of the Spy Report: https://www.theonering.net/...-the-rings-of-power/.
Cliff, like many others here, finds some of these rumors intriguing and others disturbing or even alarming.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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