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Arrrgh!

squire
Half-elven


Mar 15 2008, 6:00pm


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Arrrgh! [In reply to] Can't Post
("...screamed an impatient Nozdrul, who, by coincidence, happened to be named Argh.")

I'm not sure the Sil needs to be "redone" to become more "accurate". "Accurate" to what standard? Some projection as to Tolkien's mind (or "intent") just before his death, on every point of interest in his entire legendarium? It seems clear to me that Tolkien never had a settled vision of the entire Sil at any point in his life. The entire thing ebbed and flowed back and forth in his mind like a sea of tales, with this or that detail or character or plotline changing its form and purpose every time he pulled it out for inspection.

For instance, would you like to add the later version of the Sun and the Moon to the Sil, which is sketched in Morgoth's Ring? He liked it and felt it was the right way to go, but he decided not to include it in the Sil, as far as we know, because it would have required a rewrite of the first half of the Sil and much of LotR. Should the entire adventure of Hurin with the woodmen of Brethil be included (from War of the Jewels)? The only version available is in such tremendous detail that it outweighs whole tales from other parts of the legendarium, and CT says he omitted it for that reason, (rather than, say, write his own compressed version to squeeze the "plot points" into the Sil).

In other words, I don't agree that a "most accurate" Sil is possible - and I don't think it's needed. What I would like to see is an annotated edition of the current Silmarillion, that brings to the reader's attention all the additional knowledge about the Silmarillion corpus that is now available: alternate ideas and directions considered by JRRT, the "invented" insertions or modifications by CT, the earlier and later variations on stories and characters that HoME details so well. But this would be a comprehensive scholarly apparatus added at the back, not a rewrite. I don't think one word of the 1977 edition should be changed - that way, I think, lies madness.


squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary

Subject User Time
"Oo, those awful Orcs!"... diedye Send a private message to diedye Mar 8 2008, 11:56pm
    Tolkien crying all the way to the bank. Penthe Send a private message to Penthe Mar 9 2008, 12:11am
    ZZZZZZ Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 9 2008, 2:21am
        Boner! Doner! N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 9 2008, 4:16am
    There's no excuse Eledhwen Send a private message to Eledhwen Mar 9 2008, 2:48am
        On giving away the ending. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 9 2008, 4:21am
    Wilson wanted more sex in LotR. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 9 2008, 4:06am
    "An impotence of imagination seems to me to sap the whole story." weaver Send a private message to weaver Mar 9 2008, 3:24pm
    Dot and bar orcbane Mar 9 2008, 4:12pm
        Tolkien was a critic. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 9 2008, 7:03pm
            Yep, and he was critical of other critics. Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 9 2008, 7:13pm
                Likewise some of his own criticism is now dismissed. // N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 9 2008, 7:46pm
                    He is still recognized as ground-breaking FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 9 2008, 10:18pm
                    By critics that shall also be dismissed orcbane Mar 9 2008, 10:27pm
                        Critics like Tom Shippey? N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 9 2008, 10:42pm
                            Tolkien said to us in essence 'Get a life' orcbane Mar 9 2008, 11:53pm
                                Was he also saying that to himself? N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 10 2008, 12:19am
                                    Sounds like the guy in the cartoon Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Mar 11 2008, 7:38pm
                    "Tolkien's Mistakes" Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 9 2008, 10:57pm
                        Agreed. // N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 10 2008, 12:11am
        Literary Terms? Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 10 2008, 12:21am
        The Point of Literary Criticism Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 10 2008, 3:01am
    How many million copies Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Mar 10 2008, 1:30am
        James Branch Cabell was a respected fantasist. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 10 2008, 1:41am
            Gee, it's the whole gang: Neil Gaiman, Robert Heinlein, even Deems Taylor! squire Send a private message to squire Mar 10 2008, 1:57am
                well a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 10 2008, 2:15am
                "The Thin Queen of Elfhame" N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 10 2008, 2:18am
                    Hah! squire Send a private message to squire Mar 10 2008, 3:30am
                        he read what he liked a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 10 2008, 10:46am
                            Very interesting, thanks! Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 10 2008, 1:18pm
                                Sex and Classism in Middle Earth Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 10 2008, 5:02pm
                                    Not True Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 10 2008, 6:46pm
                                        Not me. Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 10 2008, 7:29pm
                                            Not tonight N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 10 2008, 7:42pm
                                            That's not the issue, I don't think. Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 10 2008, 10:52pm
                                                sex is intended to be pleasurable a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 10 2008, 11:14pm
                                                Tolkien's position. Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 11 2008, 12:21am
                                                    Tolkien didn't say that sex was bad. Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 11 2008, 6:34pm
                                                        Diddn't see this Post Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 11 2008, 8:08pm
                                                            It's a version thing Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 11 2008, 8:49pm
                                                                Good Point Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 11 2008, 9:11pm
                                                                    Not necessarily Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 11 2008, 10:56pm
                                                                        Not tonight; I have a headache squire Send a private message to squire Mar 12 2008, 3:27am
                                                                            Daeron Suitor, not Brother Then Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 14 2008, 8:13pm
                                                                                Neither is Morgoth's Ring Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 15 2008, 4:34am
                                                                                    No 'canon', Agreed, But.... Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 15 2008, 2:50pm
                                                                                        Arrrgh! squire Send a private message to squire Mar 15 2008, 6:00pm
                                                                                            Honestly, I don't think that it is even possible Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 15 2008, 6:26pm
                                                                                            Good Point Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 15 2008, 6:49pm
                                                                                            Canon blasts Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 15 2008, 9:24pm
                                            Sorry Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 10 2008, 11:52pm
                                                Flaming Youth Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 11 2008, 1:06am
                                                    Roaring Twenties Was A Movie Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 11 2008, 1:31pm
                                                        I'm not sure where all of this is going... Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 11 2008, 3:49pm
                                                        And also a reflection of real social change Modtheow Send a private message to Modtheow Mar 11 2008, 4:07pm
                                                        Ma! Ma! Where's My Pa? squire Send a private message to squire Mar 12 2008, 3:38am
                                                            interesting story Modtheow Send a private message to Modtheow Mar 12 2008, 7:19pm
                                                        Well, my grandmother Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Mar 13 2008, 9:08pm
                                                    "Mollydoodling"! :-D Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Mar 11 2008, 7:42pm
                                                It's a common saying Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 11 2008, 6:20pm
                                                    One point Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 11 2008, 7:20pm
                                                    1 Corinthians 7, KJV a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 11 2008, 8:55pm
                                                        Thank you for the translational history, a.s.! Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 11 2008, 10:47pm
                                                    "Thou shalt have sex!" Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 11 2008, 9:17pm
                                                        "but only with thy lawfully wedded spouse" a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 12 2008, 12:39am
                                                            Family board? Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 12 2008, 4:09am
                                        That is hardly true. Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 10 2008, 10:41pm
                                        I was the one who wrote that. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 12 2008, 3:57am
                                    Sam is a *hero* Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 10 2008, 11:06pm
                                    Actually, Sam is kin to the Fallowhides. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 11 2008, 10:17am
                                        Yes, blood will out FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 11 2008, 11:11am
                                            The two overlap. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 11 2008, 11:48am
                                                They do overlap FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 11 2008, 12:00pm
                                                    Such pride can be harmless. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 11 2008, 12:12pm
                                                        Tolkien also writes about overcoming prejudice FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 11 2008, 12:35pm
                                                            In the face of a common threat, yes. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 11 2008, 11:03pm
                                            Normal and Innocent? squire Send a private message to squire Mar 11 2008, 11:57am
                                                Oh, I agree FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 11 2008, 12:05pm
                                                    What's spooky... Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 14 2008, 1:38pm
                                                        Yep. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 14 2008, 5:46pm
                                            So did Tolkien mean... N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 11 2008, 2:23pm
                                                Mary Sue or Memoir Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 11 2008, 2:43pm
                                                    How do we distinguish Tolkien the real author... N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 11 2008, 6:06pm
                                                        An excellent question! Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 11 2008, 7:32pm
                                            Primitive Literature Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 11 2008, 3:33pm
                                                Yes and no. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 11 2008, 4:50pm
                                                    I quite agree! Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 11 2008, 5:28pm
                                                        Yes, I think we are both thinking FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 11 2008, 5:43pm
                                                    I often wonder Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Mar 13 2008, 6:34pm
                                                        Yes, we are very greedy FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 13 2008, 7:27pm
                                                        Gandalf Values Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 13 2008, 10:26pm
                                                Here's the quote from Tolkien's Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 11 2008, 11:26pm
        pronounced "Pwa-tem" :-) a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 10 2008, 2:02am
        I'm a James Branch Caball Fan... Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 10 2008, 2:26am
            The most penetrating analysis by far, Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Mar 10 2008, 3:24am
            comment elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Mar 10 2008, 6:40am
    Sex! Drugs! Race! Religion! Straying politicians! Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 12 2008, 1:01am
        It's a very entertaining thread Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Mar 13 2008, 9:11pm

 
 
 

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