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And also a reflection of real social change

Modtheow
Lorien


Mar 11 2008, 4:07pm


Views: 524
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And also a reflection of real social change [In reply to] Can't Post
It’s interesting and important, I think, to listen to the stories of our parents and grandparents to gain an understanding of what individual lives might have been like in the past, but I think it’s equally important to recognize that what we’re listening to is anecdotal evidence that does not paint the full picture of a period of history. Your grandparents might have lived one way, Dreamdeer’s another, and all kinds of other variations exist if you throw in some other grandparents’ stories. If you look at the entire historical record, though, you will find facts like the ones Dreamdeer lists that indicate that the "Roaring Twenties" represented a period of real social change in Europe and North America. That doesn’t mean that in 1921 everyone started boozing and listening to jazz or that everyone gave up living by their religious beliefs; some people continued to live conservative lives abiding by longstanding moral codes and others threw those off and experimented with new ways of living. On both sides of this spectrum, people lived successful lives and people lived tragic lives. The same is true in the 1960s and after.

But I think it’s untenable, going by the historical record, to say that people didn’t just jump into bed with one another before the 60s (as you seem to state in an earlier message). Some people did. There was a reason that homes for "wayward girls" were established, that orphanages existed, that abortion (since the Middle Ages at least) could be bought for a high price if you were rich enough and for an even more dangerously low price if you weren’t. There’s a reason for the cliched "shot-gun" marriages that people used to hear whispers about. Look even at Tolkien’s own family: according to his biographer Humphrey Carpenter, Tolkien’s wife Edith, who was born in 1889, was most likely the offspring of an out-of-wedlock union. Tolkien’s reaction on finding this out at their wedding (and this is before the 1920s) was not to say "OMG! I’ve never heard of such a thing! People just don’t do that!" His reaction was to write to her: "I think I love you even more tenderly because of all that, my wife...but we must as far as possible forget it and entrust it to God" (Carpenter, chapter 7). I think Tolkien treats Edith’s "illegitimacy" as a social fact, an unfortunate one to be sure, but not an unusual one for the time.

As for your other statements about drugs, disease, and politicians: it’s difficult to extract a clear line of argument relating to Tolkien from what sounds to my ears, I’m sorry to say, like a personal political rant. I could try to counter with examples of syphilis epidemics in centuries past, with examples like the widespread laudanum addictions of the 1890s, with testimonies from all the western nations today (except the U.S.) that have universal health care, or add in examples like Mark Foley or Larry Craig to your selected list of disgraced politicians – but that would lead us nowhere nearer to an understanding of Tolkien’s views on sex or class.

So, to keep the discussion on Tolkien, I'll say that I think that in his day, some people were living their lives with a much more liberal outlook on sexuality, and some people were writing books with a far more explicit interest in sex than Tolkien had in LOTR. That’s not to say that Tolkien didn’t understand sexuality, as some of his letters and his stories demonstrate, but I agree with Dreamdeer that Tolkien was deliberately writing against some of the conventions of his time.

Subject User Time
"Oo, those awful Orcs!"... diedye Send a private message to diedye Mar 8 2008, 11:56pm
    Tolkien crying all the way to the bank. Penthe Send a private message to Penthe Mar 9 2008, 12:11am
    ZZZZZZ Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 9 2008, 2:21am
        Boner! Doner! N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 9 2008, 4:16am
    There's no excuse Eledhwen Send a private message to Eledhwen Mar 9 2008, 2:48am
        On giving away the ending. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 9 2008, 4:21am
    Wilson wanted more sex in LotR. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 9 2008, 4:06am
    "An impotence of imagination seems to me to sap the whole story." weaver Send a private message to weaver Mar 9 2008, 3:24pm
    Dot and bar orcbane Mar 9 2008, 4:12pm
        Tolkien was a critic. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 9 2008, 7:03pm
            Yep, and he was critical of other critics. Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 9 2008, 7:13pm
                Likewise some of his own criticism is now dismissed. // N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 9 2008, 7:46pm
                    He is still recognized as ground-breaking FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 9 2008, 10:18pm
                    By critics that shall also be dismissed orcbane Mar 9 2008, 10:27pm
                        Critics like Tom Shippey? N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 9 2008, 10:42pm
                            Tolkien said to us in essence 'Get a life' orcbane Mar 9 2008, 11:53pm
                                Was he also saying that to himself? N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 10 2008, 12:19am
                                    Sounds like the guy in the cartoon Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Mar 11 2008, 7:38pm
                    "Tolkien's Mistakes" Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 9 2008, 10:57pm
                        Agreed. // N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 10 2008, 12:11am
        Literary Terms? Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 10 2008, 12:21am
        The Point of Literary Criticism Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 10 2008, 3:01am
    How many million copies Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Mar 10 2008, 1:30am
        James Branch Cabell was a respected fantasist. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 10 2008, 1:41am
            Gee, it's the whole gang: Neil Gaiman, Robert Heinlein, even Deems Taylor! squire Send a private message to squire Mar 10 2008, 1:57am
                well a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 10 2008, 2:15am
                "The Thin Queen of Elfhame" N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 10 2008, 2:18am
                    Hah! squire Send a private message to squire Mar 10 2008, 3:30am
                        he read what he liked a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 10 2008, 10:46am
                            Very interesting, thanks! Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 10 2008, 1:18pm
                                Sex and Classism in Middle Earth Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 10 2008, 5:02pm
                                    Not True Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 10 2008, 6:46pm
                                        Not me. Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 10 2008, 7:29pm
                                            Not tonight N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 10 2008, 7:42pm
                                            That's not the issue, I don't think. Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 10 2008, 10:52pm
                                                sex is intended to be pleasurable a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 10 2008, 11:14pm
                                                Tolkien's position. Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 11 2008, 12:21am
                                                    Tolkien didn't say that sex was bad. Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 11 2008, 6:34pm
                                                        Diddn't see this Post Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 11 2008, 8:08pm
                                                            It's a version thing Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 11 2008, 8:49pm
                                                                Good Point Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 11 2008, 9:11pm
                                                                    Not necessarily Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 11 2008, 10:56pm
                                                                        Not tonight; I have a headache squire Send a private message to squire Mar 12 2008, 3:27am
                                                                            Daeron Suitor, not Brother Then Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 14 2008, 8:13pm
                                                                                Neither is Morgoth's Ring Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 15 2008, 4:34am
                                                                                    No 'canon', Agreed, But.... Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 15 2008, 2:50pm
                                                                                        Arrrgh! squire Send a private message to squire Mar 15 2008, 6:00pm
                                                                                            Honestly, I don't think that it is even possible Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 15 2008, 6:26pm
                                                                                            Good Point Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 15 2008, 6:49pm
                                                                                            Canon blasts Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 15 2008, 9:24pm
                                            Sorry Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 10 2008, 11:52pm
                                                Flaming Youth Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 11 2008, 1:06am
                                                    Roaring Twenties Was A Movie Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 11 2008, 1:31pm
                                                        I'm not sure where all of this is going... Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 11 2008, 3:49pm
                                                        And also a reflection of real social change Modtheow Send a private message to Modtheow Mar 11 2008, 4:07pm
                                                        Ma! Ma! Where's My Pa? squire Send a private message to squire Mar 12 2008, 3:38am
                                                            interesting story Modtheow Send a private message to Modtheow Mar 12 2008, 7:19pm
                                                        Well, my grandmother Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Mar 13 2008, 9:08pm
                                                    "Mollydoodling"! :-D Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Mar 11 2008, 7:42pm
                                                It's a common saying Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 11 2008, 6:20pm
                                                    One point Tolkien Forever Send a private message to Tolkien Forever Mar 11 2008, 7:20pm
                                                    1 Corinthians 7, KJV a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 11 2008, 8:55pm
                                                        Thank you for the translational history, a.s.! Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 11 2008, 10:47pm
                                                    "Thou shalt have sex!" Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 11 2008, 9:17pm
                                                        "but only with thy lawfully wedded spouse" a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 12 2008, 12:39am
                                                            Family board? Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 12 2008, 4:09am
                                        That is hardly true. Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 10 2008, 10:41pm
                                        I was the one who wrote that. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 12 2008, 3:57am
                                    Sam is a *hero* Beren IV Send a private message to Beren IV Mar 10 2008, 11:06pm
                                    Actually, Sam is kin to the Fallowhides. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 11 2008, 10:17am
                                        Yes, blood will out FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 11 2008, 11:11am
                                            The two overlap. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 11 2008, 11:48am
                                                They do overlap FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 11 2008, 12:00pm
                                                    Such pride can be harmless. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 11 2008, 12:12pm
                                                        Tolkien also writes about overcoming prejudice FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 11 2008, 12:35pm
                                                            In the face of a common threat, yes. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 11 2008, 11:03pm
                                            Normal and Innocent? squire Send a private message to squire Mar 11 2008, 11:57am
                                                Oh, I agree FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 11 2008, 12:05pm
                                                    What's spooky... Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 14 2008, 1:38pm
                                                        Yep. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 14 2008, 5:46pm
                                            So did Tolkien mean... N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 11 2008, 2:23pm
                                                Mary Sue or Memoir Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 11 2008, 2:43pm
                                                    How do we distinguish Tolkien the real author... N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 11 2008, 6:06pm
                                                        An excellent question! Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 11 2008, 7:32pm
                                            Primitive Literature Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 11 2008, 3:33pm
                                                Yes and no. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 11 2008, 4:50pm
                                                    I quite agree! Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 11 2008, 5:28pm
                                                        Yes, I think we are both thinking FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 11 2008, 5:43pm
                                                    I often wonder Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Mar 13 2008, 6:34pm
                                                        Yes, we are very greedy FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 13 2008, 7:27pm
                                                        Gandalf Values Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 13 2008, 10:26pm
                                                Here's the quote from Tolkien's Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 11 2008, 11:26pm
        pronounced "Pwa-tem" :-) a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 10 2008, 2:02am
        I'm a James Branch Caball Fan... Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 10 2008, 2:26am
            The most penetrating analysis by far, Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Mar 10 2008, 3:24am
            comment elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Mar 10 2008, 6:40am
    Sex! Drugs! Race! Religion! Straying politicians! Dreamdeer Send a private message to Dreamdeer Mar 12 2008, 1:01am
        It's a very entertaining thread Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Mar 13 2008, 9:11pm

 
 
 

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