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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 11 2008, 2:43pm
Views: 522
Shortcut
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So did Tolkien mean in presenting a novel where the supposed authors are ignorant of their racism and classism, to think less of those authors? I'd suppose he was presenting them to be as much a product of their time and culture as any of us. Otherwise you'd have something as ridiculous and anachronistic as Errol Flynn's Robin Hood fighting for Freedom and Democracy. Sure, we'd like to think we'd be free of racism, classism, and sexism if we lived back then, but really, we wouldn't. I worry that your use of the memoir conceit here gives license to any author to comfortingly present hideous "truths", on the excuse that it's really the almost-invisible story-internal author/editors who are to blame. As opposed to presenting authors or editors from the past who possess modern sensibilites? That's the very epitome of Mary Sue historical fiction.
****************************************** The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Subject
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User
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Time
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"Oo, those awful Orcs!"...
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diedye
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Mar 8 2008, 11:56pm
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Tolkien crying all the way to the bank.
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Penthe
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Mar 9 2008, 12:11am
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ZZZZZZ
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Tolkien Forever
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Mar 9 2008, 2:21am
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Boner! Doner!
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 9 2008, 4:16am
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There's no excuse
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Eledhwen
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Mar 9 2008, 2:48am
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On giving away the ending.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 9 2008, 4:21am
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Wilson wanted more sex in LotR.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 9 2008, 4:06am
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"An impotence of imagination seems to me to sap the whole story."
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weaver
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Mar 9 2008, 3:24pm
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Dot and bar
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orcbane
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Mar 9 2008, 4:12pm
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Tolkien was a critic.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 9 2008, 7:03pm
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Yep, and he was critical of other critics.
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Darkstone
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Mar 9 2008, 7:13pm
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Likewise some of his own criticism is now dismissed. //
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 9 2008, 7:46pm
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He is still recognized as ground-breaking
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FarFromHome
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Mar 9 2008, 10:18pm
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By critics that shall also be dismissed
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orcbane
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Mar 9 2008, 10:27pm
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Critics like Tom Shippey?
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 9 2008, 10:42pm
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Tolkien said to us in essence 'Get a life'
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orcbane
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Mar 9 2008, 11:53pm
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Was he also saying that to himself?
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 10 2008, 12:19am
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Sounds like the guy in the cartoon
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Mar 11 2008, 7:38pm
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"Tolkien's Mistakes"
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Darkstone
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Mar 9 2008, 10:57pm
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Agreed. //
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 10 2008, 12:11am
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Literary Terms?
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Tolkien Forever
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Mar 10 2008, 12:21am
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The Point of Literary Criticism
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 10 2008, 3:01am
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How many million copies
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Elizabeth
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Mar 10 2008, 1:30am
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James Branch Cabell was a respected fantasist.
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 10 2008, 1:41am
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Gee, it's the whole gang: Neil Gaiman, Robert Heinlein, even Deems Taylor!
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squire
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Mar 10 2008, 1:57am
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well
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a.s.
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Mar 10 2008, 2:15am
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"The Thin Queen of Elfhame"
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 10 2008, 2:18am
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Hah!
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squire
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Mar 10 2008, 3:30am
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he read what he liked
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a.s.
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Mar 10 2008, 10:46am
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Very interesting, thanks!
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Curious
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Mar 10 2008, 1:18pm
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Sex and Classism in Middle Earth
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 10 2008, 5:02pm
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Not True
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Tolkien Forever
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Mar 10 2008, 6:46pm
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Not me.
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 10 2008, 7:29pm
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Not tonight
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 10 2008, 7:42pm
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That's not the issue, I don't think.
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Beren IV
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Mar 10 2008, 10:52pm
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sex is intended to be pleasurable
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a.s.
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Mar 10 2008, 11:14pm
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Tolkien's position.
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 11 2008, 12:21am
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Tolkien didn't say that sex was bad.
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Beren IV
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Mar 11 2008, 6:34pm
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Diddn't see this Post
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Tolkien Forever
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Mar 11 2008, 8:08pm
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It's a version thing
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Beren IV
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Mar 11 2008, 8:49pm
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Good Point
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Tolkien Forever
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Mar 11 2008, 9:11pm
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Not necessarily
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Beren IV
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Mar 11 2008, 10:56pm
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Not tonight; I have a headache
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squire
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Mar 12 2008, 3:27am
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Daeron Suitor, not Brother Then
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Tolkien Forever
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Mar 14 2008, 8:13pm
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Neither is Morgoth's Ring
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Beren IV
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Mar 15 2008, 4:34am
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No 'canon', Agreed, But....
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Tolkien Forever
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Mar 15 2008, 2:50pm
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Arrrgh!
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squire
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Mar 15 2008, 6:00pm
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Honestly, I don't think that it is even possible
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Beren IV
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Mar 15 2008, 6:26pm
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Good Point
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Tolkien Forever
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Mar 15 2008, 6:49pm
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Canon blasts
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 15 2008, 9:24pm
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Sorry
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Tolkien Forever
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Mar 10 2008, 11:52pm
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Flaming Youth
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 11 2008, 1:06am
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Roaring Twenties Was A Movie
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Tolkien Forever
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Mar 11 2008, 1:31pm
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I'm not sure where all of this is going...
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 11 2008, 3:49pm
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And also a reflection of real social change
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Modtheow
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Mar 11 2008, 4:07pm
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Ma! Ma! Where's My Pa?
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squire
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Mar 12 2008, 3:38am
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interesting story
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Modtheow
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Mar 12 2008, 7:19pm
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Well, my grandmother
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Mar 13 2008, 9:08pm
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"Mollydoodling"! :-D
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Mar 11 2008, 7:42pm
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It's a common saying
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Beren IV
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Mar 11 2008, 6:20pm
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One point
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Tolkien Forever
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Mar 11 2008, 7:20pm
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1 Corinthians 7, KJV
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a.s.
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Mar 11 2008, 8:55pm
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Thank you for the translational history, a.s.!
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Beren IV
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Mar 11 2008, 10:47pm
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"Thou shalt have sex!"
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Darkstone
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Mar 11 2008, 9:17pm
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"but only with thy lawfully wedded spouse"
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a.s.
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Mar 12 2008, 12:39am
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Family board?
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Beren IV
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Mar 12 2008, 4:09am
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That is hardly true.
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Beren IV
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Mar 10 2008, 10:41pm
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I was the one who wrote that.
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Curious
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Mar 12 2008, 3:57am
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Sam is a *hero*
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Beren IV
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Mar 10 2008, 11:06pm
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Actually, Sam is kin to the Fallowhides.
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Curious
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Mar 11 2008, 10:17am
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Yes, blood will out
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FarFromHome
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Mar 11 2008, 11:11am
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The two overlap.
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Curious
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Mar 11 2008, 11:48am
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They do overlap
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FarFromHome
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Mar 11 2008, 12:00pm
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Such pride can be harmless.
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Curious
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Mar 11 2008, 12:12pm
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Tolkien also writes about overcoming prejudice
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FarFromHome
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Mar 11 2008, 12:35pm
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In the face of a common threat, yes.
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Curious
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Mar 11 2008, 11:03pm
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Normal and Innocent?
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squire
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Mar 11 2008, 11:57am
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Oh, I agree
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FarFromHome
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Mar 11 2008, 12:05pm
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What's spooky...
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Darkstone
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Mar 14 2008, 1:38pm
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Yep.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 14 2008, 5:46pm
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So did Tolkien mean...
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 11 2008, 2:23pm
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Mary Sue or Memoir
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Darkstone
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Mar 11 2008, 2:43pm
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How do we distinguish Tolkien the real author...
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N.E. Brigand
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Mar 11 2008, 6:06pm
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An excellent question!
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Darkstone
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Mar 11 2008, 7:32pm
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Primitive Literature
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 11 2008, 3:33pm
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Yes and no.
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FarFromHome
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Mar 11 2008, 4:50pm
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I quite agree!
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 11 2008, 5:28pm
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Yes, I think we are both thinking
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FarFromHome
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Mar 11 2008, 5:43pm
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I often wonder
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Mar 13 2008, 6:34pm
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Yes, we are very greedy
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FarFromHome
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Mar 13 2008, 7:27pm
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Gandalf Values
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 13 2008, 10:26pm
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Here's the quote from Tolkien's
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Curious
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Mar 11 2008, 11:26pm
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pronounced "Pwa-tem" :-)
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a.s.
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Mar 10 2008, 2:02am
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I'm a James Branch Caball Fan...
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 10 2008, 2:26am
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The most penetrating analysis by far,
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Elizabeth
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Mar 10 2008, 3:24am
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comment
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elostirion74
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Mar 10 2008, 6:40am
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Sex! Drugs! Race! Religion! Straying politicians!
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Dreamdeer
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Mar 12 2008, 1:01am
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It's a very entertaining thread
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Mar 13 2008, 9:11pm
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