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Another reply

Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jan 16 2014, 8:31pm


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Another reply [In reply to] Can't Post
1. Andreth
I am not sure whether to like this revelation about her emotional distress. For one thing, it make Finrod look like a cat playing with a mouse, doesn't it? He could debate with her as much as he liked, having this winning card up his sleeve.
It is true, though, that Finrod seems to be winning the logical part of the debate; and that Andreth was so stubborn in her rejection of his words because of some emotional blockade. I understand (and share) the urge to attribute others failing to see the beauty and truth of one's own beliefs to some personal disorder of theirs; but is Tolkien fair here?

I do see the possibility in perceiving Finrod as an elitist. He could have pulled this card earlier, but his restraint confirms my suspicion that he is there, not to win an argument, but to genuinely help. I think of the Authors Note that says:

This is not presented as an argument of any cogency for Men in their present situation (or the one in which themselves to be), though it may have some interest for Men who start with similar beliefs or assumptions to those held by the Elvish king Finrod.
It is in fact simply part of the portrayal of the imaginary world of the Silmarillion, and an example of the kind of thing that enquiring minds on either side, the Elvish or the Human, must have said to one another after they became acquainted. We see here the attempts of a generous Elvish mind to fathom the relations of Elves and Men, and the part they were designed to play in what he would have called the Oienkarme Eruo (The One's perpetual production), which might be rendered by 'God's management of the Drama'.

He was there by Authorial intent, to illustrate '...the attempts of a generous Elvish mind to fathom the relations of Elves and Men...' Tolkien says that it is not presented as an argument for cogency, else there would be a clear statement of truth given. I think the intent was to allow the readers to see the different mindsets of an Elf and a Woman.

Finrod may seem high and lordly, and Andreth mean, petty, and ignorant, but are those circumstances really relevant to the matter at hand? The fact is that Finrod was in a better place to understand the broad outline of the Divine plan. He was in Valinor, spoke to the Valar, and lived and learned for thousands years more than any Men. Can we fault him for speaking so clearly and assuredly when he has good reasons to believe himself right?
It is then, I believe, that the Revelation to Men balances the field. Men have heard from Eru directly, a thing no Elf has done. Finrod might have the main outline, but Andreth and Men may have loose, unconnected details, and be struggling to piece them together in a clear framework. This is why I believe the statement of Finrod (that Men may be there to comfort the Elves and vice versa) may be true.

On the whole, the matter is left ambiguous. I know Tolkien had his own notions about what was true, but he could only fit so much into his Legendarium before it became a despised allegory and mere parallel to the Christian worldview. He may have had a private answer to the knotty question, perhaps similar to his personal values, but he left it unanswered, and that allows us to draw our own conclusions without feeling beaten over the head with a moral standard. This is one of the reasons I think his writings appeal to so many. They point to truth (or at least what he believed to be true), but the final decision is left to us, preserving the Free-will that was so important to the whole.



On a side-note, I did not answer your thread regarding Faramir. I must say that I disagree with your interpretation of the movie's portrayal of him. And I say that even though he is my favourite character. There is no time to enlarge of that - but if you are interested, I wrote my thoughts about him here.

That was only my initial response. I was not terribly clear, and I apologise. That was my viewpoint and opinion when I first saw the film. Rest assured, I would not be here if I thought so still. Apologies.

4. Finrod's parting-shot
I am not sure about this; but it is, in a way, an attempt to cling to Men and their fate. In one of his letters, Tolkien wrote that the human stories of the elves must be concerned with the "escape from deathlessness". Is this the first example?

That is an excellent idea, and worthy of thought. It may well be the first chronological instance of Elvish ennui. I do believe that he also said that the Elves did not possess true 'immortality', but 'serial existence', time was extended, but life was not. I really do not think Elves were doomed to live on the same rock forever, any more than they were to stay in Valinor forever.

(by the way, my earlier comment regarding puritan's meant Bunyan and The Pilgrim's Progress, with it's strong emphasis on Men being mere visitors in this world, on the way to a better place)

I understand. I personally believe that there is a 'better place' and I think a lot of people would agree with me. We might disagree on the details, but a hope for a paradise, life-after-death, heaven, etc... is a widespread idea. That may be yet another reason for the broad appeal of Tolkien.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?

Subject User Time
RR Discussion: The Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:29am
    Prefaces and Introductions Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:30am
        The Mortality is a lie. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:31am
            Life is so unfair Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:31am
                Life is Pain Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:32am
                    Life as we knew it Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:33am
                        Why we are different Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:33am
                            What is hope? Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:33am
                                A New Hope? Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:34am
                                    On a personal note Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:34am
                                        Final Notes (**DOS SPOILER**) Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:35am
                                            Let's try to finish this off... sador Send a private message to sador Jan 17 2014, 10:03am
                                        Faith and Love in this life Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 10 2014, 3:55am
                                            Thoughts back Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 11 2014, 8:32pm
                                                Great points Rem Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 11 2014, 9:44pm
                                        Too little, too late sador Send a private message to sador Jan 16 2014, 4:05pm
                                            Another reply Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 16 2014, 8:31pm
                                                Now you're drawing me out! sador Send a private message to sador Jan 17 2014, 7:35am
                                            Faramir Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 16 2014, 8:40pm
                                    A New Hope? Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 5 2014, 3:05am
                                        Speculating on Eru CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 9 2014, 1:26am
                                            The physicality of Andreth Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 9 2014, 1:52am
                                                Doubly cheated CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 9 2014, 1:06pm
                                                    Wisdom and sacrifice Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 10 2014, 2:20am
                                    Inside and Outside and saviors Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 9 2014, 1:38am
                                    Short and selcetive sador Send a private message to sador Jan 14 2014, 3:01pm
                                Old hope and new. Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 31 2013, 4:58am
                                    My take... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 31 2013, 3:26pm
                                        I love this Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 31 2013, 3:58pm
                                        Wonderful thoughts CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 7 2014, 2:24am
                                            An RL analogue? Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 2:45am
                                            Finrod, and subtexting Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 7 2014, 3:29am
                                Estel and Amdir Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 4 2014, 5:12am
                                    Faith and Hope Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 5 2014, 2:29am
                                        Great piece of scripture Mikah Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 5 2014, 4:33am
                                            Of faith, hope, and Fingolfin Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 5 2014, 3:39pm
                                                A rationale for the irrational? Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 2:27am
                                                Fingolfin, Eowyn, Frodo CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 7 2014, 2:51am
                                                    Hmmm... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 3:15am
                                                        Interesting Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 7 2014, 6:08am
                                                            Giving in to ideal hope--indeed a cool notion. // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 7 2014, 1:07pm
                                                                Moral Imperitives. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 9:16pm
                                                                    Fingolfin and rewards CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 9 2014, 1:18am
                                                                        Fingolfin and the Halls of Mandos Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 9 2014, 6:00pm
                                        Comments and my two cents... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 2:38am
                                            Great metaphor Rem! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 7 2014, 3:36am
                                For one thing, I hope to complete this... sador Send a private message to sador Jan 13 2014, 2:16pm
                                    Replies.... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 14 2014, 1:53am
                                        (I do that too Rem!) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 14 2014, 2:11am
                            Condition of Elves, Men, and Arda Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 30 2013, 12:11am
                                I agree most whole-heartedly Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 30 2013, 1:34am
                            Life after death, for men and elves Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 1 2014, 8:15pm
                                Ambiguity and Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 2 2014, 3:17am
                                    Keeping us all Finrod-ed (and confused?) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 2 2014, 3:48am
                            My, I am slow! sador Send a private message to sador Jan 9 2014, 6:32pm
                                A quick reply. (See what I did there!) Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 9 2014, 7:07pm
                                    The Tale of Adanel Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 10 2014, 1:56am
                                    The plans for Men and Elves Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 10 2014, 2:03am
                        Disharmony of Men Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 5:57pm
                            Everlasting life Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 6:17pm
                            I love this evolving concept! Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 6:33pm
                                Is faith the difference? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 7:00pm
                                    I think that the alterations of the original..., Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 7:15pm
                                    You do have a point... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 7:17pm
                                        Indeed Mikah - back to the OP! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 7:23pm
                        Short answers sador Send a private message to sador Jan 8 2014, 4:23pm
                    Relative faith in their futures Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 6:45am
                        Power of Morgoth Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 4:45pm
                            Agreed Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 5:59pm
                                Yes, the bucket of cold water... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 6:22pm
                                    A slap in the face? Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 6:36pm
                                        And to degenerate the idea even further Mikah, I picture the Fish Slapping Dance!! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 6:39pm
                                            LOL! Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 6:43pm
                                                Maybe it will become the new 'Legolas's sense of direction' Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 31 2013, 4:39pm
                                                    Fish-slapping and wife-beating would explain Finrod's bachelorhood. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 6 2014, 10:40pm
                                                        Great Insight Curious George! Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 7 2014, 5:45am
                    Has Tolkien read RH Benson? sador Send a private message to sador Jan 7 2014, 9:08pm
                        Thoughts back Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 9:29pm
                            The spirit turning-point for Finrod Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 8 2014, 6:38pm
                                Both personal and philosophical CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 9 2014, 1:13am
                                    Potenially a return to Firstborn and Follower? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 9 2014, 2:03am
                                        It appears as the pivot point to me, anyway. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 9 2014, 12:56pm
                                            I think you are right Curious George... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 9 2014, 5:54pm
                Comparative sadness Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 4:22am
                    Elvish despair Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 6:10am
                        More agreement ... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 6:56am
                            Andreth Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 31 2013, 5:10am
                Plodding along sador Send a private message to sador Jan 6 2014, 4:18pm
                    Thoughts.... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 2:21am
                    Delayed musing.. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 10 2014, 4:16am
                        This is an important concept... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 11 2014, 5:28pm
                        Following your example Rem, I too have a delayed musing... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 11 2014, 5:29pm
                            Good question... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 11 2014, 6:07pm
                                Agreed about Elendil Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 13 2014, 1:00am
                        This musing of yours brings me back to the Ainulindale, Rem Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 11 2014, 8:17pm
            Arda Marred and Western trips Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 3:45am
                Tribulation in Middle Earth Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 5:20am
                    Great points here Mikah!!!!! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 6:07am
                        Pondering the point further... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 7:02am
                    Out of the mouths of babes Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 6:45pm
            Plodding along sador Send a private message to sador Jan 6 2014, 6:32am
                On sponge-men Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 2:06am
                Two interesting ideas Sador Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 7 2014, 2:36pm
        This all looks most wondrous Rem! (rubs hands) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 3:08am
            My, you HAVE been productive!!! Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 5:56pm
                We *were* very busy Rem Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 6:43pm
                    We really were... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 6:48pm
                        Me too Mikah! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 7:04pm
        Morgoth's Ring Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 4:22am
            I agree Mikah Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 4:28am
        First answers sador Send a private message to sador Jan 2 2014, 2:26pm
        Story construction CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 7 2014, 1:40am
    Oh wow... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 3:26am
    Just one short note, Rem, sador Send a private message to sador Jan 2 2014, 1:50pm
        Yes Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 2 2014, 8:51pm
    just wanted to say... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jan 7 2014, 2:12pm
        I hope you can join us soon CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 7 2014, 10:45pm

 
 
 

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