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The Mortality is a lie.

Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2013, 2:31am


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The Mortality is a lie. [In reply to] Can't Post
Finrod visits the leader of the Folk of Bëor, Belemir, perhaps to express his condolences on the death of Boron, the former chief. He 'falls' into conversation with Andreth, expressing his grief at the deaths of those he knew. He says that their life was too short for his liking, to which Andreth replies with an affirmation that Men's lives were longer now, than they had been under the Shadow of Evil. Finrod then ask if they are content, to which Andreth responds that they are not. Finrod is puzzled, and asks what effect the Shadow has upon their mortality, positing that Eru must have been the source of their being, thus their limited span of years is assumed, by him, to be natural.



Finrod seems to be in ignorance here.
Perhaps this is their first meeting, or Finrod's first foray into his studies of Men? Maybe he had been studying Men from an Elf-centric view, and has faulty preconceptions?


Andreth then says that Elves in general, whether they be Moriquendi or High Elves, seem to share the idea that Men are doomed to die quickly. She says that it is also assumed by Elves, that, though they are ‘Children of Eru’ as well, Men are less than they, and consequently looked down upon. Finrod sadly agrees that many Elves do have this superior attitude. He quickly separates himself from this majority, and he also qualifies the thought by assuring her that when Elves speak of Men as ‘Children of Eru’, they do not use that term lightly. He reassured her that the Elves do see Men as close kindred, infinitely dearer than all other living things that fade. He then asks if they are wrong in assuming that Men inherently fade quickly, as do all other things.


Finrod here illuminates the opinion of the Elven majority. He also tries to raise Andreth's estimation of their own opinion of Men, by setting Men apart from birds, beasts, plants, and closer to themselves, the Eldar, but he then asks if their mortality is not part of their nature, indirectly comparing Men to the things from which he had previously tried to set them apart.
Does this apparent contradiction in thought, belie his ignorance or an unconsciously held idea of Elven superiority?
He expresses a desire to learn though, so that eliminates the possibility of irredeemable pride, in my eyes.


Andreth then corrects Finrod, saying that she believes the disinformation to have been bred by the Shadow. Among Men, she reveals that there are many opinions. The popular one is that it had always been so, man was naturally short lived. She depreciates this view as the unlearned account, and states that there are others, called 'Wise', who do not think so. Even among the dissenters, there is dissent, and they cannot win many to their side, having little to no proof; instead they rely on 'lore'. This source, she disparages as unreliable, but ultimately containing elements of truth. She says that most of the dissent comes from the Wise of Marach, and that they have retained better memory of the early days and Eru. The people of Marach hold that Men had more longevity, and became lesser through the interference of Melkor.


Andreth's use of the word 'lore' would seem to be slightly negative. She doesn't rely upon it totally, knowing that legends and errors have crept in, but in learning of Adanel, she seems to value it. Indeed many of her thoughts seem to be borrowed from Adanel.
How do you think that this impacts the integrity of the traditions, and thus her side of the argument?
Her beliefs, in contrast to Finrod's, seem to be more tenuous. Finrod has what he considers to be facts, perhaps gleaned from firsthand experience, or in Valinor. Men do not have tangible evidence, yet Andreth seems to be convinced in her own way.
What are your thoughts on the two types of confidence expressed?


Finrod responds that the idea of the waning of Men, due to Melkor's influence, is plausible. Even among the Elves, a lessening is noted. They are not so tall, or resilient as those who came before. He says that the original intent for both peoples, must then be altered somewhat, and the extent and fullness of decay may not be understood for many years. He then postulates that since they are further from the source of decay, Melkor, Men will regain some, if not most, of their intended vitality.

Finrod seems to think that 'Arda Marred', the decay of what was supposed to be, acts more like a localised poison. If one could remove the source, (i.e. Melkor) or get further from it, the world would become better, and return to the way it was meant to be.


Andreth remonstrates with him vehemently. She says that ‘You do not understand…We were not made for death…Death was imposed upon us.’(Emphasis, mine) She further expresses the opinion that there is no hope for Men to escape death in Arda. Even if they came to Valinor, death would follow. The hope that brought them out of the Shadow was empty in a way—it did not deliver them from death. Even on the march, this was recognised, but that did not convince anyone to stop. Death is inescapable.

Andreth seems to make a rather proud and bitter complaint—‘Death was imposed upon us’. She also seems sadly fatalistic about the fate of Men within Arda. How do you feel about these statements? Does it make Andreth more, or less sympathetic?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?

Subject User Time
RR Discussion: The Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:29am
    Prefaces and Introductions Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:30am
        The Mortality is a lie. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:31am
            Life is so unfair Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:31am
                Life is Pain Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:32am
                    Life as we knew it Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:33am
                        Why we are different Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:33am
                            What is hope? Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:33am
                                A New Hope? Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:34am
                                    On a personal note Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:34am
                                        Final Notes (**DOS SPOILER**) Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 2:35am
                                            Let's try to finish this off... sador Send a private message to sador Jan 17 2014, 10:03am
                                        Faith and Love in this life Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 10 2014, 3:55am
                                            Thoughts back Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 11 2014, 8:32pm
                                                Great points Rem Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 11 2014, 9:44pm
                                        Too little, too late sador Send a private message to sador Jan 16 2014, 4:05pm
                                            Another reply Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 16 2014, 8:31pm
                                                Now you're drawing me out! sador Send a private message to sador Jan 17 2014, 7:35am
                                            Faramir Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 16 2014, 8:40pm
                                    A New Hope? Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 5 2014, 3:05am
                                        Speculating on Eru CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 9 2014, 1:26am
                                            The physicality of Andreth Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 9 2014, 1:52am
                                                Doubly cheated CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 9 2014, 1:06pm
                                                    Wisdom and sacrifice Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 10 2014, 2:20am
                                    Inside and Outside and saviors Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 9 2014, 1:38am
                                    Short and selcetive sador Send a private message to sador Jan 14 2014, 3:01pm
                                Old hope and new. Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 31 2013, 4:58am
                                    My take... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 31 2013, 3:26pm
                                        I love this Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 31 2013, 3:58pm
                                        Wonderful thoughts CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 7 2014, 2:24am
                                            An RL analogue? Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 2:45am
                                            Finrod, and subtexting Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 7 2014, 3:29am
                                Estel and Amdir Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 4 2014, 5:12am
                                    Faith and Hope Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 5 2014, 2:29am
                                        Great piece of scripture Mikah Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 5 2014, 4:33am
                                            Of faith, hope, and Fingolfin Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 5 2014, 3:39pm
                                                A rationale for the irrational? Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 2:27am
                                                Fingolfin, Eowyn, Frodo CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 7 2014, 2:51am
                                                    Hmmm... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 3:15am
                                                        Interesting Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 7 2014, 6:08am
                                                            Giving in to ideal hope--indeed a cool notion. // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 7 2014, 1:07pm
                                                                Moral Imperitives. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 9:16pm
                                                                    Fingolfin and rewards CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 9 2014, 1:18am
                                                                        Fingolfin and the Halls of Mandos Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 9 2014, 6:00pm
                                        Comments and my two cents... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 2:38am
                                            Great metaphor Rem! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 7 2014, 3:36am
                                For one thing, I hope to complete this... sador Send a private message to sador Jan 13 2014, 2:16pm
                                    Replies.... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 14 2014, 1:53am
                                        (I do that too Rem!) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 14 2014, 2:11am
                            Condition of Elves, Men, and Arda Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 30 2013, 12:11am
                                I agree most whole-heartedly Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 30 2013, 1:34am
                            Life after death, for men and elves Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 1 2014, 8:15pm
                                Ambiguity and Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 2 2014, 3:17am
                                    Keeping us all Finrod-ed (and confused?) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 2 2014, 3:48am
                            My, I am slow! sador Send a private message to sador Jan 9 2014, 6:32pm
                                A quick reply. (See what I did there!) Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 9 2014, 7:07pm
                                    The Tale of Adanel Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 10 2014, 1:56am
                                    The plans for Men and Elves Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 10 2014, 2:03am
                        Disharmony of Men Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 5:57pm
                            Everlasting life Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 6:17pm
                            I love this evolving concept! Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 6:33pm
                                Is faith the difference? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 7:00pm
                                    I think that the alterations of the original..., Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 7:15pm
                                    You do have a point... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 7:17pm
                                        Indeed Mikah - back to the OP! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 7:23pm
                        Short answers sador Send a private message to sador Jan 8 2014, 4:23pm
                    Relative faith in their futures Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 6:45am
                        Power of Morgoth Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 4:45pm
                            Agreed Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 5:59pm
                                Yes, the bucket of cold water... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 6:22pm
                                    A slap in the face? Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 6:36pm
                                        And to degenerate the idea even further Mikah, I picture the Fish Slapping Dance!! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 6:39pm
                                            LOL! Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 6:43pm
                                                Maybe it will become the new 'Legolas's sense of direction' Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 31 2013, 4:39pm
                                                    Fish-slapping and wife-beating would explain Finrod's bachelorhood. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 6 2014, 10:40pm
                                                        Great Insight Curious George! Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 7 2014, 5:45am
                    Has Tolkien read RH Benson? sador Send a private message to sador Jan 7 2014, 9:08pm
                        Thoughts back Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 9:29pm
                            The spirit turning-point for Finrod Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 8 2014, 6:38pm
                                Both personal and philosophical CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 9 2014, 1:13am
                                    Potenially a return to Firstborn and Follower? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 9 2014, 2:03am
                                        It appears as the pivot point to me, anyway. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 9 2014, 12:56pm
                                            I think you are right Curious George... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 9 2014, 5:54pm
                Comparative sadness Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 4:22am
                    Elvish despair Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 6:10am
                        More agreement ... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 6:56am
                            Andreth Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 31 2013, 5:10am
                Plodding along sador Send a private message to sador Jan 6 2014, 4:18pm
                    Thoughts.... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 2:21am
                    Delayed musing.. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 10 2014, 4:16am
                        This is an important concept... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 11 2014, 5:28pm
                        Following your example Rem, I too have a delayed musing... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 11 2014, 5:29pm
                            Good question... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Jan 11 2014, 6:07pm
                                Agreed about Elendil Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 13 2014, 1:00am
                        This musing of yours brings me back to the Ainulindale, Rem Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 11 2014, 8:17pm
            Arda Marred and Western trips Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 3:45am
                Tribulation in Middle Earth Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 5:20am
                    Great points here Mikah!!!!! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 6:07am
                        Pondering the point further... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 7:02am
                    Out of the mouths of babes Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 6:45pm
            Plodding along sador Send a private message to sador Jan 6 2014, 6:32am
                On sponge-men Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 7 2014, 2:06am
                Two interesting ideas Sador Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 7 2014, 2:36pm
        This all looks most wondrous Rem! (rubs hands) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 3:08am
            My, you HAVE been productive!!! Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Dec 29 2013, 5:56pm
                We *were* very busy Rem Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 6:43pm
                    We really were... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 6:48pm
                        Me too Mikah! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 7:04pm
        Morgoth's Ring Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 4:22am
            I agree Mikah Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Dec 29 2013, 4:28am
        First answers sador Send a private message to sador Jan 2 2014, 2:26pm
        Story construction CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 7 2014, 1:40am
    Oh wow... Mikah Send a private message to Mikah Dec 29 2013, 3:26am
    Just one short note, Rem, sador Send a private message to sador Jan 2 2014, 1:50pm
        Yes Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Jan 2 2014, 8:51pm
    just wanted to say... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jan 7 2014, 2:12pm
        I hope you can join us soon CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 7 2014, 10:45pm

 
 
 

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