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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Oct 10 2013, 5:41am
Views: 870
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The Maia were present, which means other Ainur were present. Mandos (or Eonwe) made a statement
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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to the Noldor Feanor. He did not say "no Ainur less than a Valar can ever be defeated under any circumstances by a lesser Ainur", unlikely as it might be. Some of the Maiar were very great, though not on the parameters and dimensions of the Valar. Melkor was diminshed so that he could no longer approach Arien the Maia. It will also be noted that, as the war of The Host of The West was indeed Holy and Sanctioned, Divine Providence was with it, and Divine beings, Valar or no, were in it. I don't know of any other quotes about his fear. That is one of the most extensive commentaries involving him, even when one includes The Peoples of Middle Earth. although diminished at the end of the first age, Melkor was still a Vala, yet he was defeated by an army comprised of Eldar and Maia with no Valar present. So yes spiritual/physical/power are all relevant but I can never consider them as the only boundary to outcomes. Re Saruman, there is nothing to suggest Wormtounge could not have as easily cut Saruman's throat before he was cast out of the order. Sorry for giving the impression but I would not suggest the One Ring enhanced martial prowess. It may have but there is no text I know of to support this. I only sought to clarify Sauron's relative power with and without posession of the One Ring thanks to fallacies introduced by the movies. I do not believe a bunch of Hobbit archers or Wormtounge could defeat a Balrog, the chain of characters was shown to exhibit the ridiculousness of any such insistence (not by you) about who can beat who. I do not think your quote about Olorins fear is the one I am thinking of, the wording is very different. "Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!" "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Istari Questions, Melian, Galadriel & Saruman
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Girdle of Melian
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Oct 6 2013, 3:17pm
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Hope this helps with some of your questions...
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Dragonrnbw
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Oct 6 2013, 4:16pm
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Seems to me that this should be MOVED to LOTR discussions, Not TH//
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Bombadil
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Oct 6 2013, 4:47pm
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Dragon is correct
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rangerfromthenorth
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Oct 6 2013, 9:44pm
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Gandalf
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Eärwen of Mithlond
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Oct 15 2013, 2:12am
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Hello Earwen!
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Brethil
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Oct 15 2013, 3:04am
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Thank you brethil that is one of the quotes...
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rangerfromthenorth
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Oct 15 2013, 3:42pm
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Interesting discussion
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Elciryamo
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Oct 17 2013, 6:51am
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Yes!
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Rembrethil
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Oct 17 2013, 2:19pm
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I agree mostly with what you have wrote...
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rangerfromthenorth
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Oct 17 2013, 2:45pm
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Quote from the Appendices
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Rembrethil
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Oct 17 2013, 2:53pm
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I stand corrected...
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rangerfromthenorth
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Oct 17 2013, 2:58pm
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Hmmmm.....
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Rembrethil
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Oct 17 2013, 3:57pm
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no offense taken at all...
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rangerfromthenorth
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Oct 17 2013, 4:11pm
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Yes!
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Rembrethil
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Oct 17 2013, 4:21pm
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perfect!
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rangerfromthenorth
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Oct 17 2013, 4:31pm
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Flawed gods?
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Rembrethil
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Oct 17 2013, 4:41pm
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You are not corrected rangerfromthenorth you were right in the first instance
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ElendilTheShort
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Oct 17 2013, 11:06pm
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First of all, thank you for the welcome...
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Elciryamo
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Oct 17 2013, 11:17pm
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I think we agree.
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Rembrethil
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Oct 18 2013, 12:08am
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Ah yes....
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rangerfromthenorth
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Oct 18 2013, 2:14pm
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Dol Guldur?
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Elizabeth
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Oct 18 2013, 7:34am
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Thoughts....
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Rembrethil
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Oct 18 2013, 2:06pm
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The Devices of Saruman
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Otaku-sempai
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Oct 18 2013, 2:43pm
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"Devices"
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Elizabeth
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Oct 18 2013, 8:38pm
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Just for the sake of theorizing....
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Rembrethil
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Oct 19 2013, 2:20am
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Destroyed?
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Otaku-sempai
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Oct 19 2013, 11:40am
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That's how it was put, but not by you.
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squire
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Oct 19 2013, 7:11pm
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The Devices of Saruman -- Reprise
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Otaku-sempai
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Oct 19 2013, 7:30pm
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Perhaps these words imply....
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Rembrethil
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Oct 20 2013, 1:09am
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Well, if nothing else...
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Otaku-sempai
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Oct 20 2013, 11:38pm
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Thank you, that's the kind of thing that makes me reconsider
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squire
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Oct 21 2013, 12:20am
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Unless, that is
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sador
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Oct 21 2013, 12:38pm
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Invoking may not be the case
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ElendilTheShort
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Oct 26 2013, 3:50am
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Thank you!
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sador
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Oct 28 2013, 7:56am
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I'm not sure of that...
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Elciryamo
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Oct 21 2013, 6:59pm
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Well......
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Rembrethil
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Oct 21 2013, 7:21pm
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to quote Elendil the Short who is quoting Tolkien (See above)...
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rangerfromthenorth
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Oct 18 2013, 4:49pm
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Regarding the limits of power
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Elciryamo
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Oct 19 2013, 4:10am
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I think you are correct but one caveat
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rangerfromthenorth
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Oct 21 2013, 2:33pm
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Draining
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Rembrethil
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Oct 21 2013, 4:33pm
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agreed!
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rangerfromthenorth
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Oct 21 2013, 4:41pm
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Melian was different...
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Bladerunner
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Oct 6 2013, 4:55pm
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What the other said, and...
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dormouse
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Oct 6 2013, 5:39pm
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Agreed with much of this, though not all. The last bit is too strong a statement and looses much of its accuracy
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 7 2013, 2:41am
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The last bit isn't a statement of fact, AO....
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dormouse
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Oct 7 2013, 8:43am
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Well part of the problem is that two different matters are being argued, as though mutually exclusive
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 7 2013, 1:27pm
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Well....
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dormouse
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Oct 7 2013, 2:19pm
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Are you really still discussing this with him?
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Oct 7 2013, 2:51pm
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This isn't my thread. lol
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 7 2013, 3:12pm
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I wasn't until this morning...
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dormouse
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Oct 7 2013, 3:16pm
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It's good!
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Oct 7 2013, 3:24pm
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You never HAVE to. lol. Free will and all that.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 7 2013, 3:35pm
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In the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End //
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Oct 7 2013, 7:00pm
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It really doesn't
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 7 2013, 3:07pm
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Thank you Dormouse
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ElendilTheShort
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Oct 7 2013, 7:39pm
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The issue I have with that "orders of power"...
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Arannir
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Oct 7 2013, 7:57pm
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It was an absoulte statement that started many of the recent debates. Regarding Men and Balrogs
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 7 2013, 11:10pm
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"Dangerous!"
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CuriousG
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Oct 7 2013, 11:42pm
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Indeed, all well stated.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 8 2013, 3:43am
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Very unlikely is different to an absolute no
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ElendilTheShort
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Oct 8 2013, 12:37am
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Indeed. Ms. Boyens made an absolute statement, and that is where much of the
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 8 2013, 4:05am
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This is a good example
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ElendilTheShort
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Oct 8 2013, 11:37am
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I agree that would be more accurate, but the unforseeable would not be attributable to
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 8 2013, 10:50pm
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It's in the "LOTR A Readers's Companion" re the WK, Weathertop & Aragorn, it refers to another source that I think is HOME but I can't find it.
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ElendilTheShort
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Oct 9 2013, 3:43am
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It does not seem to work that way.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 9 2013, 4:48am
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Good quote to use, and interesting
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ElendilTheShort
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Oct 9 2013, 5:27am
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Should we then have a separate section for vs and power threads...and just leave
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Girdle of Melian
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Oct 9 2013, 9:52am
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Well said.
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Arannir
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Oct 9 2013, 11:43am
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True Enough
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Girdle of Melian
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Oct 9 2013, 1:53pm
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The only stupid questions
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CuriousG
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Oct 9 2013, 9:08pm
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I think refering to people as newbies would be a shame.
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ElendilTheShort
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Oct 9 2013, 11:22pm
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I make an effort to never use words like newbie in forum. lol
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 10 2013, 5:49am
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The Maia were present, which means other Ainur were present. Mandos (or Eonwe) made a statement
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 10 2013, 5:41am
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As Istari, they were not as they were as maiar.
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Elizabeth
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Oct 10 2013, 7:20am
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My comment about the presence of the Maiar was regarding the war of wrath, and The Coming of The Host of The West,
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2013, 12:24am
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Istari restrictions Letter 156
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ElendilTheShort
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Oct 9 2013, 4:17am
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I know the quote. It is in Unfinished Tales. It dpes not say anything about much more powerful.
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 9 2013, 5:00am
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The quotation you wanted may be this one...
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dormouse
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Oct 10 2013, 7:22pm
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I think you're right Dormouse
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elaen32
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Oct 10 2013, 9:00pm
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Manwe didn't select Saruman...
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dormouse
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Oct 10 2013, 9:48pm
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Aule seems a talented guy, but...
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elaen32
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Oct 10 2013, 9:58pm
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honestly
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Maciliel
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Oct 10 2013, 11:05pm
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It's not about peace, love, and dove, but the 'overly besotted' part of craftwork
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squire
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Oct 11 2013, 1:26am
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then you and i...
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Maciliel
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Oct 11 2013, 1:43am
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Exactly, and a very important point. I find people often
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AinurOlorin
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Oct 11 2013, 12:59am
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Very nicely said.
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Arannir
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Oct 8 2013, 9:41am
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Some more answers
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Rembrethil
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Oct 7 2013, 2:12pm
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Rules of engagement
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CuriousG
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Oct 7 2013, 9:06pm
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Back to the OP
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ElendilTheShort
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Oct 8 2013, 1:04am
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Nicely summarized.
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Elizabeth
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Oct 8 2013, 7:04am
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You Shall Not Pass.....Gas!
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PhantomS
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Oct 8 2013, 4:25pm
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