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I think refering to people as newbies would be a shame.

ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Oct 9 2013, 11:22pm


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I think refering to people as newbies would be a shame. [In reply to] Can't Post
Your OP was a very good one but the answers can't be found in the stories alone. For this I am thankful because if everything was explained in the stories they would become bloated, ponderous, and remove all mystery.

References to other sources such as Letters may give some reasonably solid answers on Tolkiens thoughts on a subject at that time of his life.

I think Sador put it best on these forums once along the lines of not taking just one piece of Tolkiens writing and using that to pin an argument on but fit it within the context of how his thoughts/work developed throughout his life and form an opinion based on that.

So any reference such as the one I gave of Letter 156 which seems to answer at least one part of your OP very well can be considered as useful information. That information may or may not be subject to contradictions, earlier conceptions or further changes within Tolkiens works or thoughts, as well as the opinion of each reader.

For me it's all about learning more, being made to think about or entirely re-think something I believed I knew, being proven wrong by others, and even separating book lore from movie lore as this is where much of the confusion arises. The separation of book & movie lore does not have to be seen as a derogatory thing, but can subject either source to criticism and comparism when relevant.


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Oct 9 2013, 11:23pm)

Subject User Time
Istari Questions, Melian, Galadriel & Saruman Girdle of Melian Send a private message to Girdle of Melian Oct 6 2013, 3:17pm
    Hope this helps with some of your questions... Dragonrnbw Send a private message to Dragonrnbw Oct 6 2013, 4:16pm
        Seems to me that this should be MOVED to LOTR discussions, Not TH// Bombadil Send a private message to Bombadil Oct 6 2013, 4:47pm
        Dragon is correct rangerfromthenorth Send a private message to rangerfromthenorth Oct 6 2013, 9:44pm
            Gandalf Eärwen of Mithlond Send a private message to Eärwen of Mithlond Oct 15 2013, 2:12am
                Hello Earwen! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Oct 15 2013, 3:04am
                Thank you brethil that is one of the quotes... rangerfromthenorth Send a private message to rangerfromthenorth Oct 15 2013, 3:42pm
                    Interesting discussion Elciryamo Send a private message to Elciryamo Oct 17 2013, 6:51am
                        Yes! Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Oct 17 2013, 2:19pm
                        I agree mostly with what you have wrote... rangerfromthenorth Send a private message to rangerfromthenorth Oct 17 2013, 2:45pm
                            Quote from the Appendices Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Oct 17 2013, 2:53pm
                                I stand corrected... rangerfromthenorth Send a private message to rangerfromthenorth Oct 17 2013, 2:58pm
                                    Hmmmm..... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Oct 17 2013, 3:57pm
                                        no offense taken at all... rangerfromthenorth Send a private message to rangerfromthenorth Oct 17 2013, 4:11pm
                                            Yes! Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Oct 17 2013, 4:21pm
                                                perfect! rangerfromthenorth Send a private message to rangerfromthenorth Oct 17 2013, 4:31pm
                                                    Flawed gods? Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Oct 17 2013, 4:41pm
                                    You are not corrected rangerfromthenorth you were right in the first instance ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort Oct 17 2013, 11:06pm
                                        First of all, thank you for the welcome... Elciryamo Send a private message to Elciryamo Oct 17 2013, 11:17pm
                                        I think we agree. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Oct 18 2013, 12:08am
                                        Ah yes.... rangerfromthenorth Send a private message to rangerfromthenorth Oct 18 2013, 2:14pm
                            Dol Guldur? Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Oct 18 2013, 7:34am
                                Thoughts.... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Oct 18 2013, 2:06pm
                                    The Devices of Saruman Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Oct 18 2013, 2:43pm
                                        "Devices" Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Oct 18 2013, 8:38pm
                                            Just for the sake of theorizing.... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Oct 19 2013, 2:20am
                                            Destroyed? Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Oct 19 2013, 11:40am
                                                That's how it was put, but not by you. squire Send a private message to squire Oct 19 2013, 7:11pm
                                                    The Devices of Saruman -- Reprise Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Oct 19 2013, 7:30pm
                                                        Perhaps these words imply.... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Oct 20 2013, 1:09am
                                                            Well, if nothing else... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Oct 20 2013, 11:38pm
                                                        Thank you, that's the kind of thing that makes me reconsider squire Send a private message to squire Oct 21 2013, 12:20am
                                                            Unless, that is sador Send a private message to sador Oct 21 2013, 12:38pm
                                                                Invoking may not be the case ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort Oct 26 2013, 3:50am
                                                                    Thank you! sador Send a private message to sador Oct 28 2013, 7:56am
                                                            I'm not sure of that... Elciryamo Send a private message to Elciryamo Oct 21 2013, 6:59pm
                                                            Well...... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Oct 21 2013, 7:21pm
                                to quote Elendil the Short who is quoting Tolkien (See above)... rangerfromthenorth Send a private message to rangerfromthenorth Oct 18 2013, 4:49pm
                                    Regarding the limits of power Elciryamo Send a private message to Elciryamo Oct 19 2013, 4:10am
                                        I think you are correct but one caveat rangerfromthenorth Send a private message to rangerfromthenorth Oct 21 2013, 2:33pm
                                            Draining Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Oct 21 2013, 4:33pm
                                                agreed! rangerfromthenorth Send a private message to rangerfromthenorth Oct 21 2013, 4:41pm
    Melian was different... Bladerunner Send a private message to Bladerunner Oct 6 2013, 4:55pm
    What the other said, and... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Oct 6 2013, 5:39pm
        Agreed with much of this, though not all. The last bit is too strong a statement and looses much of its accuracy AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 7 2013, 2:41am
            The last bit isn't a statement of fact, AO.... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Oct 7 2013, 8:43am
                Well part of the problem is that two different matters are being argued, as though mutually exclusive AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 7 2013, 1:27pm
                    Well.... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Oct 7 2013, 2:19pm
                        Are you really still discussing this with him? Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Oct 7 2013, 2:51pm
                            This isn't my thread. lol AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 7 2013, 3:12pm
                            I wasn't until this morning... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Oct 7 2013, 3:16pm
                                It's good! Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Oct 7 2013, 3:24pm
                                    You never HAVE to. lol. Free will and all that. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 7 2013, 3:35pm
                                        In the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End // Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Oct 7 2013, 7:00pm
                        It really doesn't AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 7 2013, 3:07pm
                Thank you Dormouse ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort Oct 7 2013, 7:39pm
                    The issue I have with that "orders of power"... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Oct 7 2013, 7:57pm
                    It was an absoulte statement that started many of the recent debates. Regarding Men and Balrogs AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 7 2013, 11:10pm
                        "Dangerous!" CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Oct 7 2013, 11:42pm
                            Indeed, all well stated. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 8 2013, 3:43am
                        Very unlikely is different to an absolute no ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort Oct 8 2013, 12:37am
                            Indeed. Ms. Boyens made an absolute statement, and that is where much of the AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 8 2013, 4:05am
                                This is a good example ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort Oct 8 2013, 11:37am
                                    I agree that would be more accurate, but the unforseeable would not be attributable to AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 8 2013, 10:50pm
                                        It's in the "LOTR A Readers's Companion" re the WK, Weathertop & Aragorn, it refers to another source that I think is HOME but I can't find it. ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort Oct 9 2013, 3:43am
                                            It does not seem to work that way. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 9 2013, 4:48am
                                                Good quote to use, and interesting ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort Oct 9 2013, 5:27am
                                                    Should we then have a separate section for vs and power threads...and just leave Girdle of Melian Send a private message to Girdle of Melian Oct 9 2013, 9:52am
                                                        Well said. Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Oct 9 2013, 11:43am
                                                            True Enough Girdle of Melian Send a private message to Girdle of Melian Oct 9 2013, 1:53pm
                                                                The only stupid questions CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Oct 9 2013, 9:08pm
                                                        I think refering to people as newbies would be a shame. ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort Oct 9 2013, 11:22pm
                                                        I make an effort to never use words like newbie in forum. lol AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 10 2013, 5:49am
                                                    The Maia were present, which means other Ainur were present. Mandos (or Eonwe) made a statement AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 10 2013, 5:41am
                                                        As Istari, they were not as they were as maiar. Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Oct 10 2013, 7:20am
                                                            My comment about the presence of the Maiar was regarding the war of wrath, and The Coming of The Host of The West, AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 11 2013, 12:24am
                                        Istari restrictions Letter 156 ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort Oct 9 2013, 4:17am
                                            I know the quote. It is in Unfinished Tales. It dpes not say anything about much more powerful. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 9 2013, 5:00am
                                            The quotation you wanted may be this one... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Oct 10 2013, 7:22pm
                                                I think you're right Dormouse elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Oct 10 2013, 9:00pm
                                                    Manwe didn't select Saruman... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Oct 10 2013, 9:48pm
                                                        Aule seems a talented guy, but... elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Oct 10 2013, 9:58pm
                                                            honestly Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Oct 10 2013, 11:05pm
                                                                It's not about peace, love, and dove, but the 'overly besotted' part of craftwork squire Send a private message to squire Oct 11 2013, 1:26am
                                                                    then you and i... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Oct 11 2013, 1:43am
                                                        Exactly, and a very important point. I find people often AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 11 2013, 12:59am
                            Very nicely said. Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Oct 8 2013, 9:41am
    Some more answers Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Oct 7 2013, 2:12pm
    Rules of engagement CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Oct 7 2013, 9:06pm
    Back to the OP ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort Oct 8 2013, 1:04am
        Nicely summarized. Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Oct 8 2013, 7:04am
    You Shall Not Pass.....Gas! PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Oct 8 2013, 4:25pm

 
 
 

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