The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room: The perfect quote yet again (Terazed)

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Here is the quote I mentioned above, that ties the ideas together : JRRT writes in 1958: "Though it is only in reading the work myself (with criticisms in mind) that I become aware of the dominance of the theme of Death. (Not that there is any original 'message' in that: most of human art & thought is similarly preoccupied.) But certainly Death is not the enemy! I said, or meant to say, that the 'message' was the hideous peril of confusing true 'immortality' with limitless serial longevity. Freedom from Time, and clinging to Time. The confusion is the work of the Enemy, and one of the chief causes of human disaster. Compare the death of Aragorn with a Ringwraith. The Elves call 'death' the Gift of God (to Men). Their temptation is different: towards a faint melancholy, burdened with Memory, leading to an attempt to halt Time." (#208, 1958)

You found the perfect quote to complement mine again.

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So is the inverse here, as *That Guy* ( Wink )suggests in the quote above and JRRT does as well, that the way to true love for and joy of life is to let go of the marking of Time? The fear of Time and the passing of existence is what coverts life (mortal or Immortal) into mere marking of days and yearning for ghosts of what was?

Yes, I would say just as love and power are opposites, love and time are opposites as well. The loss of love leads to the fear of time which in turn leads to a craving for power (for mortals at least). For immortals it might just lead to weltschmerz (world-weariness or more literally world-pain). Of course those three rings are powerful rings as well, are they not?

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I agree with your point about Aragorn choosing his death: and it reflects the 'unfallen man' per JRRT. So there is the best in humanity, the unfallen example to follow: having lived fully, not marking time until the end nor making a cultus of the dead and gone, Aragorn embraces his end and. The absolute expression of Faith? Whereas the Ringwraiths - fallen - represent the ultimate failure of faith?

Love vs Power. Love allowed Aragorn to not fear death. Love allowed him to have faith and freed him from time. The Ringwraiths wanted power because they were afraid of death. They mark time and are incapable of love.

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So in Elves, expressing their Eru-given skills in subcreation and subsequent change their statement of 'faith'? And the attempt to arrest change the (*cough* the Three) their failure - in defying Fate (if we define that as the inevitable change that will occur with Elves behaving as Elves should) and Eru's plan?

The elves are prone to loose love over an eternity of existence and develop weltschmerz. Their art certainly is capable of freeing them from time through love of nature. When that love fades over time their art changes as their weltschmerz sets in and they try to stop time rather then free themselves from it. I wonder if mortality allows humans to love more deeply (as in Wagner's Ring) and therefor increases their faith over what the elves are capable of. The fate of the elves is tragic. In the end they will never be reunited with the source of love whereas humans can. Theirs is a reflected love.

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Arwen - we had discussed how she might have sought the shelter of the nuomenal-state of post War Lorien in order to be in touch with Aragorn (outside of Time). From the authorial sense, maybe Arwen's choice for mortality is that letting go of Time, and of 'limitless serial longevity.' Which sounds like what she would feel had she stayed Immortal but lost Aragorn.

Perhaps Arwen exchanged reflected love (in art and nature) for true love when she met Aragorn. True love is what gave her the gift of mortality and allowed her to free herself from time even after the death of Aragorn. As I talked about with the love-death, love allows one freedom from illusion (wahn), which is the equivalent of piercing the veil of Maya, to be outside of time. The love-death of course also allowed Tristan and Isolde to merge souls after death ("Tristan you, I Isolde, no longer Tristan./ You Isolde, Tristan I, no longer Isolde!").

It is late so I might not be making any sense at all. The concept is rather hard to put into words at the best of times which is why I have to use so many quotes that may appear irrelevant but after being read closely convey the idea.

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