|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Terazed
Bree
Sep 23 2013, 4:40am
Views: 902
Shortcut
|
**The envy of the Elves for the Gift of Men: a literary inversion, as the 'superior' race envies the second-born, weaker race. "The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the cycles of the world. Since the point of view of the whole cycle is the Elvish, mortality is not explained mythically: it is a mystery of God of which no more is known than that 'what God proposed for Men is hidden': a grief and envy to the immortal Elves." But is the implication here that the Fate of Men is sweeter than the immortal life within the circles of the world - or is he saying that that the lure of the Unknown, as seen by the Elves, is enough in itself in a curious and seeking mind to inspire the envy that they feel? Why don't we start out by going back in time to look at the origins of the concept immortals envying mortals. I am going to go back to a quote from the very ending of Wagner's Ring that did not make it into the final opera. Wagner's Ring is all about immortal God's struggling to become mortal and coping with death. In fact almost all of Wagner's mature operas have someone cursed with immortality trying to become mortal. Back before Wagner concluded that only music could express the true meaning of his work he tried out several different ending monologues. I will quote the Schopenhauer ending. The scene is analogous to Frodo in the crack of doom in which Brunnhilde has mounted her warhorse and is about to ride into the fire to destroy the Ring and give the world a new birth. Brunnhilde, even though she is just a teenage girl, had started off as a powerful god. She was not just a valkyrie but she was also "Wotan's will", practically his other half. She came into contact with the mortals Siegmund and Sieglinde and from them she gains the first stirrings of human love and compassion. She is moved to disobey her father Wotan to try to save him from himself. He is forced to punish her by taking away her immortality. He also puts her to sleep on a rock condemned to marry the first man to come across her and to become an ordinary housewife. As a mortal she is able to experience human love to the full but it comes at a price of loosing her power absolutely. Before the ending she is beaten to a pulp by one man who drags her off to another to be raped. She is then dragged in front of everyone and made a laughing stock (remember this is a teenaged girl). She finds out that everyone she has ever loved has betrayed her. She is tricked in to betraying the man she loves most to his death. In the end it is in her hands that the fate of the world lies. She discovers in suffering of mortality a true understanding of compassionate love:
I depart from the home of desire, I flee forever the home of delusion; the open gates of eternal becoming I close behind me now: to the holiest chosen land, free from desire and delusion, the goal of the world's migration, redeemed from reincarnation, the enlightened woman now goes. The blessed end of all things eternal, do you know how I attained it? Grieving love's profoundest suffering opened my eyes for me: I saw the world end. The romantics had an interesting view of love. They felt that all love would fade with time. Death was the only way to avoid the fading. In the novels of the period you might see lovers in the heat of their passion talking about death. It may be strange to us but it made sense at the time. This is the reason why. This brings me to my first point about why the immortal elves may envy mortals. The downfall of the aesthetic life is the loss of one's humanity. Emotions such as love eventually fade away. Herman Hesse is terrific in 'Siddhartha' in pointing out the aesthetic life vs the sensual life and the benefits of both. The fading the elves may fear may be the loss of their emotions. Let me go back a little bit further. This time I will stop at 'The Essence of Christianity' by the philosopher Ludwig Feuerbach. In this work Feuerbach stands religion on its head. His theory was that in religion humans placed their highest subconscious needs. In effect man created God in his own image, not the other way around. Instead of saying God is love it should be love is God. It is an atheistic book but it was extremely influential in its day. For our purposes it set up a whole slew of works in which the gods were envious of and needed humans and not the other way around. In the consciousness of the infinite, the conscious subject has for his object the infinity of his own nature. This is a quote from Feuerbach. It is couched in a philosophic language but it is identical with Tolkien's concept of what an elf is (also the istari, Bombidil, etc). They are representations of human nature made infinite.
(This post was edited by Terazed on Sep 23 2013, 4:43am)
|
|
|
Subject
|
User
|
Time
|
Letter #131 Discussion: Of Elves and Men
|
Brethil
|
Sep 22 2013, 6:32pm
|
Of Elves and Men: Doom and Falls
|
Brethil
|
Sep 22 2013, 6:33pm
|
"Doom" was the drumbeat by the Moria orcs
|
CuriousG
|
Sep 22 2013, 9:57pm
|
No satisfaction...
|
Brethil
|
Sep 22 2013, 11:56pm
|
Feanor's life coach - LOL!
|
Na Vedui
|
Sep 23 2013, 2:23am
|
I'm picturing a Talk to the Hand...
|
Brethil
|
Sep 24 2013, 4:14pm
|
Wow
|
Na Vedui
|
Sep 25 2013, 3:05am
|
Astronomy in MEarth
|
CuriousG
|
Sep 25 2013, 8:55pm
|
Interesting CG
|
Brethil
|
Sep 25 2013, 11:13pm
|
God is love or love is God
|
Terazed
|
Sep 23 2013, 4:40am
|
A diamond (ring) is a girl's best friend
|
CuriousG
|
Sep 23 2013, 12:39pm
|
The sacred and the ordinary
|
Terazed
|
Sep 24 2013, 12:37am
|
Aragorn and Christian message
|
Brethil
|
Sep 24 2013, 4:08pm
|
More great philosophical connections Terazed
|
Brethil
|
Sep 23 2013, 7:04pm
|
Too busy for a proper reply...
|
Rembrethil
|
Sep 23 2013, 11:15pm
|
In light of the Romantic philosophy...
|
Brethil
|
Sep 24 2013, 3:52pm
|
There seems to be a point about faith in here (but I can't work out what it is)
|
noWizardme
|
Sep 24 2013, 9:00pm
|
Faith then and now
|
Brethil
|
Sep 25 2013, 2:06am
|
I've thought that since 1st read
|
CuriousG
|
Sep 25 2013, 1:22pm
|
Great comparison CG! //
|
Brethil
|
Sep 25 2013, 5:30pm
|
The concept of "heaven"
|
Dame Ioreth
|
Sep 25 2013, 10:34pm
|
Cool: bring on the dolphins!
|
Brethil
|
Sep 25 2013, 11:38pm
|
What was the question?
|
Meneldor
|
Sep 26 2013, 4:19am
|
Of Elves and Men: Fading
|
Brethil
|
Sep 22 2013, 6:38pm
|
What is 'fading'?
|
Rembrethil
|
Sep 24 2013, 2:40am
|
Musings on fading
|
Brethil
|
Sep 25 2013, 4:03am
|
Thoughts of a faded elf
|
noWizardme
|
Sep 25 2013, 8:44am
|
Eternal old age?
|
CuriousG
|
Sep 25 2013, 1:19pm
|
Old age is a risk factor, but not the whole thing
|
noWizardme
|
Sep 25 2013, 1:51pm
|
I agree with you here CG
|
elaen32
|
Sep 25 2013, 9:22pm
|
Galadriel staying busy
|
Brethil
|
Sep 25 2013, 11:08pm
|
Weariness and political action
|
Brethil
|
Sep 25 2013, 5:29pm
|
You kinda wonder what happens when Elrond and Galadriel step off the boat at the other end. And now the elves organize…
|
noWizardme
|
Sep 25 2013, 8:29pm
|
Fading and glowing
|
CuriousG
|
Sep 25 2013, 9:04pm
|
You must go through lots of bleach just to get those ice cream stains out. //
|
Brethil
|
Sep 25 2013, 11:45pm
|
*DISREGARDING* the laundry red-herring this time CG
|
Brethil
|
Sep 26 2013, 4:39pm
|
Dimming the music
|
Dame Ioreth
|
Sep 24 2013, 1:59pm
|
And Men come into the equation...
|
Brethil
|
Sep 24 2013, 4:03pm
|
Wait, is this like that cat thing?
|
Dame Ioreth
|
Sep 26 2013, 12:04am
|
Cats in boxes?! What's next?
|
Brethil
|
Sep 26 2013, 12:18am
|
Because I have permission - a joke
|
Dame Ioreth
|
Sep 26 2013, 1:53am
|
(*hysterical laughing interlude*)
|
Brethil
|
Sep 26 2013, 1:56am
|
*adds more nerdsnorts* Haw!
|
dernwyn
|
Sep 27 2013, 10:20am
|
Nice one!//
|
Na Vedui
|
Sep 27 2013, 2:27pm
|
Choke, Splutter, Heee! //
|
Ethel Duath
|
Sep 28 2013, 12:48am
|
Makes me think we need a Nerdsnort section in the Tolkienia Times. //
|
Brethil
|
Sep 28 2013, 12:50am
|
:D and of course the Pun Pages.//
|
Ethel Duath
|
Sep 28 2013, 12:58am
|
Bwahahaha!
|
Roheryn
|
Sep 28 2013, 11:07am
|
(*wasn't that great!?!?*) //
|
Brethil
|
Sep 28 2013, 4:02pm
|
Interesting post
|
Lightfoot
|
Sep 24 2013, 8:23pm
|
Is the sadness inevitable do you think?
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 4:30am
|
The long defeat - inevitable sadness
|
Dame Ioreth
|
Sep 27 2013, 1:16pm
|
I have to agree on its emotional influence, even though he doesn't want the allegory stamp
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 7:00pm
|
I suppose that if everyone were immortal
|
Lightfoot
|
Sep 27 2013, 1:44pm
|
I think that the change might have been the greater factor in their discontent...
|
Rembrethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 2:13pm
|
That's a good what-if
|
CuriousG
|
Sep 27 2013, 5:28pm
|
But then you have authorial dicta...
|
Rembrethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 6:20pm
|
More good points...(and questions...)
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 7:15pm
|
Elvish civil war!
|
Lightfoot
|
Sep 29 2013, 1:00am
|
I rambled on in response to Rem above...
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 7:29pm
|
Ha!
|
Rembrethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 7:35pm
|
(*bows*) Thank you Rem! //
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 9:18pm
|
Is Valinor just one of the Three?
|
CuriousG
|
Sep 27 2013, 8:50pm
|
Or inverse...
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 8:58pm
|
I think the Three are based on Valinor.
|
CuriousG
|
Sep 27 2013, 9:23pm
|
Yes - that show you named last week. "When Machines fall on Mortals."
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 9:27pm
|
Yes
|
Rembrethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 9:34pm
|
The biggest change being a discontent factor: the coming of Men?
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 6:34pm
|
I think the elves might have stayed put if
|
Lightfoot
|
Sep 29 2013, 12:50am
|
The Moriquendi as Men's teachers...
|
Brethil
|
Sep 29 2013, 1:24am
|
Very possible...I want to address it in one answer (see response below to Rem)..//
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 6:21pm
|
'The Makropulos Affair' On dimming the music
|
Terazed
|
Sep 24 2013, 11:59pm
|
Another thought on 'fading'
|
Rembrethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 8:08pm
|
They were shorter too.
|
Dame Ioreth
|
Sep 27 2013, 8:38pm
|
All jealous of Thorin clearly.
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 8:46pm
|
(*ahem*) Grown up answer that I owe you.
|
Brethil
|
Sep 28 2013, 3:04am
|
Of stabbing and fading
|
CuriousG
|
Sep 27 2013, 8:48pm
|
Immortality: Satisfaction NOT guarenteed
|
Rembrethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 9:08pm
|
All this and NO Customer Service hotlines. Or Unions. //
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 9:13pm
|
Yup - thoughts on Morgul-blades
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 9:11pm
|
The fea of Elves and of Men
|
Rembrethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 9:17pm
|
I *tend* (donning tinfoil pants, just in case) to think...
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 9:23pm
|
The problem with magic rings
|
CuriousG
|
Sep 27 2013, 9:27pm
|
Rings in general
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 9:36pm
|
How to catch a fea
|
Rembrethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 9:45pm
|
(*wiping tear of laughter*) at the idea of Fea-Mart
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 10:29pm
|
'Unfinished Business'
|
Rembrethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 10:46pm
|
You clearly have some unique insights here Rem.
|
Brethil
|
Sep 28 2013, 12:46am
|
I really can't answer with a horde staring me down.
|
CuriousG
|
Sep 27 2013, 9:18pm
|
Throw in Immortal Thorin and sign me up too. I'm up for that party. //
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 9:29pm
|
YOU said the RR wasn't for sissies. Just saying. //
|
Brethil
|
Sep 28 2013, 2:51am
|
The fading as fate: tied with subcreation?
|
Brethil
|
Sep 27 2013, 9:05pm
|
Two quotes. Natural and Unnatural fading
|
Terazed
|
Sep 27 2013, 10:39pm
|
Immortality vs mere existence
|
Brethil
|
Sep 28 2013, 12:39am
|
The perfect quote yet again
|
Terazed
|
Sep 28 2013, 6:32am
|
I've always wanted to say..
|
Rembrethil
|
Sep 28 2013, 12:49pm
|
Thanks. Some of the problems involved.
|
Terazed
|
Sep 28 2013, 4:01pm
|
I have to second Rem's appreciation Terazed
|
Brethil
|
Sep 28 2013, 4:24pm
|
The quotes are perfect though
|
Dame Ioreth
|
Sep 28 2013, 3:57pm
|
Bucket lists
|
Brethil
|
Sep 28 2013, 4:33pm
|
Ties in to a very important question
|
Brethil
|
Sep 28 2013, 5:22pm
|
The God-King: What about Neitzsche?
|
Terazed
|
Sep 28 2013, 7:57pm
|
Another great tie in
|
Brethil
|
Sep 29 2013, 2:12am
|
Religious truth and the enlightenment
|
Terazed
|
Sep 29 2013, 4:43am
|
Another great addition
|
Brethil
|
Sep 30 2013, 12:36am
|
Easy?
|
CuriousG
|
Sep 22 2013, 9:21pm
|
(*gets out hammer and nails*)
|
Brethil
|
Sep 22 2013, 11:32pm
|
Children of the Day, Children of the Night
|
Terazed
|
Sep 25 2013, 11:08pm
|
You are never boring Terazed
|
Brethil
|
Sep 25 2013, 11:29pm
|
|
|
|