Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
No satisfaction...

Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 22 2013, 11:56pm


Views: 316
Shortcut
No satisfaction... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Not that that means anything, or maybe it does and I'm not sure what. You are quite right - and the sound of a deep sort of kettle drum does sound like that...but a very effective spelling isn't it? **(NB: It also makes a pretty kickin' video game, or a name for a very spicy dip...."pass the Doom Dip and the Mylanta...thanks!")

Ahem. back to topic....you are so distracting CG. I will take a break from making those hurdles for a minute.

*****Good stories need tension, and JRR bases his spiritual legendarium on a profound dissatisfaction with one's fate. *****The grass is always greener on the other side, isn't it? Men want Elvish immortality, and Elves want to the Gift of Men to escape Arda. It almost seems childish, doesn't it? "Whatever I have isn't good enough. I want the toys that other kid has." Though I would say that the Elves don't go to such destructive lengths in seeking human fate as the mortals do in struggling for immortality and seem more refined in their melancholy but dignified acceptance their destiny and lack of choice in it.

All your points are wonderful (as per your usual) but that bit I starred above is such a lynchpin emotional and philosophical state that unite the Firstborn and the Followers isn't it? And its one we, as reads, can readily comprehend too. As far as destructiveness though - while Men seem to break up the barroom with their brawling (as it were) the Elves might be quiet and dignified about it, but there is the small matter of those pesky Rings that got made in response...so it seems each race rather picked their own poison?
Those reactions can be reversed, of course, when you think of Aragorn and Arwen. He faces death willingly and serenely, but she finds it "bitter to receive," and her bitterness doesn't seem fleeting. I wonder here if (Aragorn's basic nobility of spirit aside) its easier to give up what you haven't had already. Arwen has had so much time and been Firstborn her whole life...so the sacrifice means a lot to her, whereas Aragorn as grown up knowing the day of reckoning would come.

Those are my general observations. I really like your question about if Elves' innate creativity makes them seek the Unknown, since creativity usually means reaching into the Unknown and pulling something out of it into the known world for everyone else to see and appreciate. Did they yearn for "the other fate" not entirely because they wanted to leave Arda, but because they just couldn't help being so curious about what lay beyond it? (If they'd follow the implied advice of my avatar, a little ice cream goes a long way in allaying the frustration of unsated knowledge.) That's exactly why I wanted to bring that up; we get a glimpse of that endless curiosity reading about how the Elves woke up the trees to talk (that can't have been fast, or easy, and who thought of that - to even try to wake them up. The intense wanting to KNOW, to find out, to interact...its there underneath the ageless exterior. Even back to Feanor, who alone figured out how to trap the light of the Trees. (Oh dear...was ice cream the answer the whole time...?) I feel like that boundless inquiry would have maybe made them a bit batty in regards to this mysterious fate of Men: that no matter what they do, they don't get an answer to. (Even after asking Mandos, which is usually *so* helpful...Crazy )

One of the things that makes Arda interesting is that no one has all the answers (except taciturn Mandos). The Valar are wise, but there's plenty they don't know, and it seems like they have a sort of paralysis when they don't have all the facts and can't see all the outcomes. Which may be a mild excuse for why they don't intervene more in M-earth. Yes I think you may have a point here too - like when Numenor invades, they don't want to act without Eru because I don't think they understand what's happening entirely or what Eru would choose: the Children of God are HIS children, not the Valar's, so they don't have all the answers and they don't want to make a mistake, like destroying something that originates with the Divine (which relates a bit back to that lovely philosophy we got thanks to Terazed: in contemplating the creations of Eru, the Valar may be honoring Eru; and perhaps feeling the inverse applies as well, explaining that call for help.)

When they do summon the confidence to take action, they have no problem wiping the floor with Morgoth, That's true: when it comes to 'one of their own' they seem much more secure in their footing don't they? but they made a couple big goofs in the migration of the Eldar to Valinor and creating Numenor as a gift to the Edain. All races grope in the dark to figure out Eru's plan, even the angelic powers in the Great Music, who were closer to the Core Truth than anyone else. I'm not sure that the Elivsh migration and Numenor creation were mistakes in themselves, and it may be fairer to say that the long-term management of the consequences of those decisions was the real problem. Could the Valar have done more to contain the unrest of the Noldor in Valinor, maybe getting Feanor a life coach instead of letting him sprial downwards? Could they have sent teachers to Numenor to explain, "Look, this is how it is, and you need to get a better perspective on things or this island is going to turn into the seafloor." That's what I'm not sure about - *could* some sort of understanding be reached, without Sauron messing about? Or is the gifting of the island, in sight of the borders of the Immortal Lands, the Pandora's Box opened, and the resolution inevitable?

I think that's why Eru is distinct from the Valar in profound ways. They are his children, learning as they go. He's got all the answers. Tolkien is able to have an omniscient single god opposed to some well-intentioned but occasionally bumbling angels, sort of a yin and yang. Eru seems to *want* Valar, Elves, and Men to trust their better instincts and learn through their mistakes rather than be spoon-fed (hmm, didn't I mention that already?). That view conforms with many religions and seems a natural fit for life in the real world where we wonder why things sometimes go right, and sometimes go very wrong despite everything we thought we were doing right. And maybe by giving faces to the 'wrong goings' at times it makes it more easy for us to identify with?


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








(This post was edited by Brethil on Sep 22 2013, 11:57pm)

Subject User Time
Letter #131 Discussion: Of Elves and Men Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 22 2013, 6:32pm
    Of Elves and Men: Doom and Falls Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 22 2013, 6:33pm
        "Doom" was the drumbeat by the Moria orcs CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 22 2013, 9:57pm
            No satisfaction... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 22 2013, 11:56pm
            Feanor's life coach - LOL! Na Vedui Send a private message to Na Vedui Sep 23 2013, 2:23am
                I'm picturing a Talk to the Hand... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 24 2013, 4:14pm
                    Wow Na Vedui Send a private message to Na Vedui Sep 25 2013, 3:05am
                        Astronomy in MEarth CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 25 2013, 8:55pm
                            Interesting CG Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 11:13pm
        God is love or love is God Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 23 2013, 4:40am
            A diamond (ring) is a girl's best friend CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 23 2013, 12:39pm
                The sacred and the ordinary Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 24 2013, 12:37am
                    Aragorn and Christian message Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 24 2013, 4:08pm
            More great philosophical connections Terazed Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 23 2013, 7:04pm
                Too busy for a proper reply... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 23 2013, 11:15pm
                    In light of the Romantic philosophy... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 24 2013, 3:52pm
        There seems to be a point about faith in here (but I can't work out what it is) noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Sep 24 2013, 9:00pm
            Faith then and now Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 2:06am
            I've thought that since 1st read CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 25 2013, 1:22pm
                Great comparison CG! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 5:30pm
            The concept of "heaven" Dame Ioreth Send a private message to Dame Ioreth Sep 25 2013, 10:34pm
                Cool: bring on the dolphins! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 11:38pm
                What was the question? Meneldor Send a private message to Meneldor Sep 26 2013, 4:19am
    Of Elves and Men: Fading Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 22 2013, 6:38pm
        What is 'fading'? Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 24 2013, 2:40am
            Musings on fading Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 4:03am
                Thoughts of a faded elf noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Sep 25 2013, 8:44am
                    Eternal old age? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 25 2013, 1:19pm
                        Old age is a risk factor, but not the whole thing noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Sep 25 2013, 1:51pm
                        I agree with you here CG elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Sep 25 2013, 9:22pm
                            Galadriel staying busy Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 11:08pm
                    Weariness and political action Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 5:29pm
                        You kinda wonder what happens when Elrond and Galadriel step off the boat at the other end. And now the elves organize… noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Sep 25 2013, 8:29pm
            Fading and glowing CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 25 2013, 9:04pm
                You must go through lots of bleach just to get those ice cream stains out. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 11:45pm
                *DISREGARDING* the laundry red-herring this time CG Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 26 2013, 4:39pm
        Dimming the music Dame Ioreth Send a private message to Dame Ioreth Sep 24 2013, 1:59pm
            And Men come into the equation... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 24 2013, 4:03pm
                Wait, is this like that cat thing? Dame Ioreth Send a private message to Dame Ioreth Sep 26 2013, 12:04am
                    Cats in boxes?! What's next? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 26 2013, 12:18am
                        Because I have permission - a joke Dame Ioreth Send a private message to Dame Ioreth Sep 26 2013, 1:53am
                            (*hysterical laughing interlude*) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 26 2013, 1:56am
                            *adds more nerdsnorts* Haw! dernwyn Send a private message to dernwyn Sep 27 2013, 10:20am
                            Nice one!// Na Vedui Send a private message to Na Vedui Sep 27 2013, 2:27pm
                            Choke, Splutter, Heee! // Ethel Duath Send a private message to Ethel Duath Sep 28 2013, 12:48am
                                Makes me think we need a Nerdsnort section in the Tolkienia Times. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 12:50am
                                    :D and of course the Pun Pages.// Ethel Duath Send a private message to Ethel Duath Sep 28 2013, 12:58am
                            Bwahahaha! Roheryn Send a private message to Roheryn Sep 28 2013, 11:07am
                                (*wasn't that great!?!?*) // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 4:02pm
            Interesting post Lightfoot Send a private message to Lightfoot Sep 24 2013, 8:23pm
                Is the sadness inevitable do you think? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 4:30am
                    The long defeat - inevitable sadness Dame Ioreth Send a private message to Dame Ioreth Sep 27 2013, 1:16pm
                        I have to agree on its emotional influence, even though he doesn't want the allegory stamp Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 7:00pm
                    I suppose that if everyone were immortal Lightfoot Send a private message to Lightfoot Sep 27 2013, 1:44pm
                        I think that the change might have been the greater factor in their discontent... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 2:13pm
                            That's a good what-if CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 27 2013, 5:28pm
                                But then you have authorial dicta... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 6:20pm
                                    More good points...(and questions...) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 7:15pm
                                    Elvish civil war! Lightfoot Send a private message to Lightfoot Sep 29 2013, 1:00am
                                I rambled on in response to Rem above... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 7:29pm
                                    Ha! Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 7:35pm
                                        (*bows*) Thank you Rem! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:18pm
                                    Is Valinor just one of the Three? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 27 2013, 8:50pm
                                        Or inverse... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 8:58pm
                                            I think the Three are based on Valinor. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 27 2013, 9:23pm
                                                Yes - that show you named last week. "When Machines fall on Mortals." Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:27pm
                                                Yes Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 9:34pm
                            The biggest change being a discontent factor: the coming of Men? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 6:34pm
                            I think the elves might have stayed put if Lightfoot Send a private message to Lightfoot Sep 29 2013, 12:50am
                                The Moriquendi as Men's teachers... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 29 2013, 1:24am
                        Very possible...I want to address it in one answer (see response below to Rem)..// Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 6:21pm
            'The Makropulos Affair' On dimming the music Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 24 2013, 11:59pm
        Another thought on 'fading' Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 8:08pm
            They were shorter too. Dame Ioreth Send a private message to Dame Ioreth Sep 27 2013, 8:38pm
                All jealous of Thorin clearly. Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 8:46pm
                (*ahem*) Grown up answer that I owe you. Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 3:04am
            Of stabbing and fading CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 27 2013, 8:48pm
                Immortality: Satisfaction NOT guarenteed Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 9:08pm
                    All this and NO Customer Service hotlines. Or Unions. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:13pm
                Yup - thoughts on Morgul-blades Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:11pm
                    The fea of Elves and of Men Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 9:17pm
                        I *tend* (donning tinfoil pants, just in case) to think... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:23pm
                            The problem with magic rings CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 27 2013, 9:27pm
                                Rings in general Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:36pm
                            How to catch a fea Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 9:45pm
                                (*wiping tear of laughter*) at the idea of Fea-Mart Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 10:29pm
                                    'Unfinished Business' Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 10:46pm
                                        You clearly have some unique insights here Rem. Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 12:46am
                    I really can't answer with a horde staring me down. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 27 2013, 9:18pm
                        Throw in Immortal Thorin and sign me up too. I'm up for that party. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:29pm
                        YOU said the RR wasn't for sissies. Just saying. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 2:51am
            The fading as fate: tied with subcreation? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:05pm
                Two quotes. Natural and Unnatural fading Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 27 2013, 10:39pm
                    Immortality vs mere existence Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 12:39am
                        The perfect quote yet again Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 28 2013, 6:32am
                            I've always wanted to say.. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 28 2013, 12:49pm
                                Thanks. Some of the problems involved. Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 28 2013, 4:01pm
                                    I have to second Rem's appreciation Terazed Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 4:24pm
                            The quotes are perfect though Dame Ioreth Send a private message to Dame Ioreth Sep 28 2013, 3:57pm
                                Bucket lists Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 4:33pm
                            Ties in to a very important question Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 5:22pm
                                The God-King: What about Neitzsche? Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 28 2013, 7:57pm
                                    Another great tie in Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 29 2013, 2:12am
                                        Religious truth and the enlightenment Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 29 2013, 4:43am
                                            Another great addition Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 30 2013, 12:36am
    Easy? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 22 2013, 9:21pm
        (*gets out hammer and nails*) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 22 2013, 11:32pm
    Children of the Day, Children of the Night Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 25 2013, 11:08pm
        You are never boring Terazed Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 11:29pm

 
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.