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Brethil
Half-elven
Sep 22 2013, 11:56pm
Views: 893
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Not that that means anything, or maybe it does and I'm not sure what. You are quite right - and the sound of a deep sort of kettle drum does sound like that...but a very effective spelling isn't it? **(NB: It also makes a pretty kickin' video game, or a name for a very spicy dip...." pass the Doom Dip and the Mylanta...thanks!") Ahem. back to topic....you are so distracting CG. I will take a break from making those hurdles for a minute. *****Good stories need tension, and JRR bases his spiritual legendarium on a profound dissatisfaction with one's fate. ***** The grass is always greener on the other side, isn't it? Men want Elvish immortality, and Elves want to the Gift of Men to escape Arda. It almost seems childish, doesn't it? "Whatever I have isn't good enough. I want the toys that other kid has." Though I would say that the Elves don't go to such destructive lengths in seeking human fate as the mortals do in struggling for immortality and seem more refined in their melancholy but dignified acceptance their destiny and lack of choice in it. All your points are wonderful (as per your usual) but that bit I starred above is such a lynchpin emotional and philosophical state that unite the Firstborn and the Followers isn't it? And its one we, as reads, can readily comprehend too. As far as destructiveness though - while Men seem to break up the barroom with their brawling (as it were) the Elves might be quiet and dignified about it, but there is the small matter of those pesky Rings that got made in response...so it seems each race rather picked their own poison? Those reactions can be reversed, of course, when you think of Aragorn and Arwen. He faces death willingly and serenely, but she finds it "bitter to receive," and her bitterness doesn't seem fleeting. I wonder here if (Aragorn's basic nobility of spirit aside) its easier to give up what you haven't had already. Arwen has had so much time and been Firstborn her whole life...so the sacrifice means a lot to her, whereas Aragorn as grown up knowing the day of reckoning would come. Those are my general observations. I really like your question about if Elves' innate creativity makes them seek the Unknown, since creativity usually means reaching into the Unknown and pulling something out of it into the known world for everyone else to see and appreciate. Did they yearn for "the other fate" not entirely because they wanted to leave Arda, but because they just couldn't help being so curious about what lay beyond it? (If they'd follow the implied advice of my avatar, a little ice cream goes a long way in allaying the frustration of unsated knowledge.) That's exactly why I wanted to bring that up; we get a glimpse of that endless curiosity reading about how the Elves woke up the trees to talk (that can't have been fast, or easy, and who thought of that - to even try to wake them up. The intense wanting to KNOW, to find out, to interact...its there underneath the ageless exterior. Even back to Feanor, who alone figured out how to trap the light of the Trees. (Oh dear...was ice cream the answer the whole time...?) I feel like that boundless inquiry would have maybe made them a bit batty in regards to this mysterious fate of Men: that no matter what they do, they don't get an answer to. (Even after asking Mandos, which is usually *so* helpful... ) One of the things that makes Arda interesting is that no one has all the answers (except taciturn Mandos). The Valar are wise, but there's plenty they don't know, and it seems like they have a sort of paralysis when they don't have all the facts and can't see all the outcomes. Which may be a mild excuse for why they don't intervene more in M-earth. Yes I think you may have a point here too - like when Numenor invades, they don't want to act without Eru because I don't think they understand what's happening entirely or what Eru would choose: the Children of God are HIS children, not the Valar's, so they don't have all the answers and they don't want to make a mistake, like destroying something that originates with the Divine (which relates a bit back to that lovely philosophy we got thanks to Terazed: in contemplating the creations of Eru, the Valar may be honoring Eru; and perhaps feeling the inverse applies as well, explaining that call for help.) When they do summon the confidence to take action, they have no problem wiping the floor with Morgoth, That's true: when it comes to 'one of their own' they seem much more secure in their footing don't they? but they made a couple big goofs in the migration of the Eldar to Valinor and creating Numenor as a gift to the Edain. All races grope in the dark to figure out Eru's plan, even the angelic powers in the Great Music, who were closer to the Core Truth than anyone else. I'm not sure that the Elivsh migration and Numenor creation were mistakes in themselves, and it may be fairer to say that the long-term management of the consequences of those decisions was the real problem. Could the Valar have done more to contain the unrest of the Noldor in Valinor, maybe getting Feanor a life coach instead of letting him sprial downwards? Could they have sent teachers to Numenor to explain, "Look, this is how it is, and you need to get a better perspective on things or this island is going to turn into the seafloor." That's what I'm not sure about - *could* some sort of understanding be reached, without Sauron messing about? Or is the gifting of the island, in sight of the borders of the Immortal Lands, the Pandora's Box opened, and the resolution inevitable? I think that's why Eru is distinct from the Valar in profound ways. They are his children, learning as they go. He's got all the answers. Tolkien is able to have an omniscient single god opposed to some well-intentioned but occasionally bumbling angels, sort of a yin and yang. Eru seems to *want* Valar, Elves, and Men to trust their better instincts and learn through their mistakes rather than be spoon-fed (hmm, didn't I mention that already?). That view conforms with many religions and seems a natural fit for life in the real world where we wonder why things sometimes go right, and sometimes go very wrong despite everything we thought we were doing right. And maybe by giving faces to the 'wrong goings' at times it makes it more easy for us to identify with? Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!
(This post was edited by Brethil on Sep 22 2013, 11:57pm)
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Letter #131 Discussion: Of Elves and Men
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Brethil
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Sep 22 2013, 6:32pm
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Of Elves and Men: Doom and Falls
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Brethil
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Sep 22 2013, 6:33pm
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"Doom" was the drumbeat by the Moria orcs
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CuriousG
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Sep 22 2013, 9:57pm
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No satisfaction...
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Brethil
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Sep 22 2013, 11:56pm
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Feanor's life coach - LOL!
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Na Vedui
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Sep 23 2013, 2:23am
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I'm picturing a Talk to the Hand...
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Brethil
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Sep 24 2013, 4:14pm
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Wow
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Na Vedui
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Sep 25 2013, 3:05am
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Astronomy in MEarth
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CuriousG
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Sep 25 2013, 8:55pm
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Interesting CG
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Brethil
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Sep 25 2013, 11:13pm
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God is love or love is God
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Terazed
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Sep 23 2013, 4:40am
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A diamond (ring) is a girl's best friend
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CuriousG
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Sep 23 2013, 12:39pm
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The sacred and the ordinary
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Terazed
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Sep 24 2013, 12:37am
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Aragorn and Christian message
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Brethil
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Sep 24 2013, 4:08pm
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More great philosophical connections Terazed
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Brethil
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Sep 23 2013, 7:04pm
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Too busy for a proper reply...
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Rembrethil
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Sep 23 2013, 11:15pm
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In light of the Romantic philosophy...
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Brethil
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Sep 24 2013, 3:52pm
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There seems to be a point about faith in here (but I can't work out what it is)
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noWizardme
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Sep 24 2013, 9:00pm
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Faith then and now
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Brethil
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Sep 25 2013, 2:06am
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I've thought that since 1st read
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CuriousG
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Sep 25 2013, 1:22pm
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Great comparison CG! //
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Brethil
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Sep 25 2013, 5:30pm
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The concept of "heaven"
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Dame Ioreth
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Sep 25 2013, 10:34pm
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Cool: bring on the dolphins!
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Brethil
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Sep 25 2013, 11:38pm
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What was the question?
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Meneldor
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Sep 26 2013, 4:19am
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Of Elves and Men: Fading
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Brethil
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Sep 22 2013, 6:38pm
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What is 'fading'?
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Rembrethil
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Sep 24 2013, 2:40am
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Musings on fading
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Brethil
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Sep 25 2013, 4:03am
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Thoughts of a faded elf
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noWizardme
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Sep 25 2013, 8:44am
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Eternal old age?
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CuriousG
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Sep 25 2013, 1:19pm
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Old age is a risk factor, but not the whole thing
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noWizardme
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Sep 25 2013, 1:51pm
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I agree with you here CG
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elaen32
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Sep 25 2013, 9:22pm
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Galadriel staying busy
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Brethil
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Sep 25 2013, 11:08pm
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Weariness and political action
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Brethil
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Sep 25 2013, 5:29pm
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You kinda wonder what happens when Elrond and Galadriel step off the boat at the other end. And now the elves organize…
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noWizardme
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Sep 25 2013, 8:29pm
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Fading and glowing
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CuriousG
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Sep 25 2013, 9:04pm
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You must go through lots of bleach just to get those ice cream stains out. //
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Brethil
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Sep 25 2013, 11:45pm
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*DISREGARDING* the laundry red-herring this time CG
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Brethil
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Sep 26 2013, 4:39pm
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Dimming the music
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Dame Ioreth
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Sep 24 2013, 1:59pm
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And Men come into the equation...
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Brethil
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Sep 24 2013, 4:03pm
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Wait, is this like that cat thing?
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Dame Ioreth
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Sep 26 2013, 12:04am
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Cats in boxes?! What's next?
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Brethil
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Sep 26 2013, 12:18am
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Because I have permission - a joke
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Dame Ioreth
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Sep 26 2013, 1:53am
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(*hysterical laughing interlude*)
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Brethil
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Sep 26 2013, 1:56am
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*adds more nerdsnorts* Haw!
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dernwyn
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Sep 27 2013, 10:20am
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Nice one!//
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Na Vedui
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Sep 27 2013, 2:27pm
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Choke, Splutter, Heee! //
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Ethel Duath
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Sep 28 2013, 12:48am
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Makes me think we need a Nerdsnort section in the Tolkienia Times. //
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Brethil
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Sep 28 2013, 12:50am
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:D and of course the Pun Pages.//
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Ethel Duath
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Sep 28 2013, 12:58am
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Bwahahaha!
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Roheryn
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Sep 28 2013, 11:07am
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(*wasn't that great!?!?*) //
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Brethil
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Sep 28 2013, 4:02pm
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Interesting post
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Lightfoot
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Sep 24 2013, 8:23pm
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Is the sadness inevitable do you think?
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 4:30am
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The long defeat - inevitable sadness
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Dame Ioreth
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Sep 27 2013, 1:16pm
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I have to agree on its emotional influence, even though he doesn't want the allegory stamp
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 7:00pm
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I suppose that if everyone were immortal
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Lightfoot
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Sep 27 2013, 1:44pm
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I think that the change might have been the greater factor in their discontent...
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Rembrethil
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Sep 27 2013, 2:13pm
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That's a good what-if
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CuriousG
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Sep 27 2013, 5:28pm
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But then you have authorial dicta...
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Rembrethil
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Sep 27 2013, 6:20pm
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More good points...(and questions...)
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 7:15pm
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Elvish civil war!
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Lightfoot
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Sep 29 2013, 1:00am
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I rambled on in response to Rem above...
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 7:29pm
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Ha!
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Rembrethil
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Sep 27 2013, 7:35pm
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(*bows*) Thank you Rem! //
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 9:18pm
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Is Valinor just one of the Three?
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CuriousG
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Sep 27 2013, 8:50pm
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Or inverse...
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 8:58pm
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I think the Three are based on Valinor.
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CuriousG
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Sep 27 2013, 9:23pm
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Yes - that show you named last week. "When Machines fall on Mortals."
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 9:27pm
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Yes
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Rembrethil
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Sep 27 2013, 9:34pm
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The biggest change being a discontent factor: the coming of Men?
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 6:34pm
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I think the elves might have stayed put if
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Lightfoot
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Sep 29 2013, 12:50am
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The Moriquendi as Men's teachers...
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Brethil
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Sep 29 2013, 1:24am
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Very possible...I want to address it in one answer (see response below to Rem)..//
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 6:21pm
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'The Makropulos Affair' On dimming the music
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Terazed
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Sep 24 2013, 11:59pm
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Another thought on 'fading'
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Rembrethil
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Sep 27 2013, 8:08pm
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They were shorter too.
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Dame Ioreth
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Sep 27 2013, 8:38pm
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All jealous of Thorin clearly.
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 8:46pm
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(*ahem*) Grown up answer that I owe you.
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Brethil
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Sep 28 2013, 3:04am
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Of stabbing and fading
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CuriousG
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Sep 27 2013, 8:48pm
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Immortality: Satisfaction NOT guarenteed
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Rembrethil
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Sep 27 2013, 9:08pm
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All this and NO Customer Service hotlines. Or Unions. //
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 9:13pm
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Yup - thoughts on Morgul-blades
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 9:11pm
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The fea of Elves and of Men
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Rembrethil
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Sep 27 2013, 9:17pm
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I *tend* (donning tinfoil pants, just in case) to think...
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 9:23pm
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The problem with magic rings
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CuriousG
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Sep 27 2013, 9:27pm
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Rings in general
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 9:36pm
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How to catch a fea
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Rembrethil
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Sep 27 2013, 9:45pm
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(*wiping tear of laughter*) at the idea of Fea-Mart
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 10:29pm
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'Unfinished Business'
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Rembrethil
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Sep 27 2013, 10:46pm
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You clearly have some unique insights here Rem.
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Brethil
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Sep 28 2013, 12:46am
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I really can't answer with a horde staring me down.
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CuriousG
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Sep 27 2013, 9:18pm
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Throw in Immortal Thorin and sign me up too. I'm up for that party. //
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 9:29pm
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YOU said the RR wasn't for sissies. Just saying. //
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Brethil
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Sep 28 2013, 2:51am
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The fading as fate: tied with subcreation?
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Brethil
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Sep 27 2013, 9:05pm
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Two quotes. Natural and Unnatural fading
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Terazed
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Sep 27 2013, 10:39pm
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Immortality vs mere existence
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Brethil
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Sep 28 2013, 12:39am
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The perfect quote yet again
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Terazed
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Sep 28 2013, 6:32am
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I've always wanted to say..
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Rembrethil
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Sep 28 2013, 12:49pm
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Thanks. Some of the problems involved.
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Terazed
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Sep 28 2013, 4:01pm
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I have to second Rem's appreciation Terazed
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Brethil
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Sep 28 2013, 4:24pm
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The quotes are perfect though
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Dame Ioreth
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Sep 28 2013, 3:57pm
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Bucket lists
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Brethil
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Sep 28 2013, 4:33pm
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Ties in to a very important question
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Brethil
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Sep 28 2013, 5:22pm
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The God-King: What about Neitzsche?
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Terazed
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Sep 28 2013, 7:57pm
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Another great tie in
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Brethil
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Sep 29 2013, 2:12am
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Religious truth and the enlightenment
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Terazed
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Sep 29 2013, 4:43am
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Another great addition
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Brethil
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Sep 30 2013, 12:36am
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Easy?
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CuriousG
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Sep 22 2013, 9:21pm
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(*gets out hammer and nails*)
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Brethil
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Sep 22 2013, 11:32pm
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Children of the Day, Children of the Night
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Terazed
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Sep 25 2013, 11:08pm
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You are never boring Terazed
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Brethil
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Sep 25 2013, 11:29pm
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