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Maciliel
Valinor
Sep 9 2013, 5:39am
Views: 854
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you made me laugh, rembrethil! : ) my "pity the orcs" thread has followed me out of the reading room. : ) seriously, 'tho, the original reason i started that thread is because of some of the ideas spoken in parallel here.... it seems rather awful, especially in a world created by tolkien, that orcs could be born, doomed beyond all hope, to be miserable, enslaved, and yet have not the sliver of a chance for improvement or redemption. even though tolkien (in letter #153, which is quoted by mat) removes the absolutism, it does seem that -- in a practical sense -- the deck is stacked entirely against orcs, for the possibility of any of them living something other than an evil life, a violent life, a corrupt life. in the "pity the orcs" thread, we also ruminated on whether an orc raised from an infant would inevitably mature into the orcs we generally know. it seems that there would be a sliver of a chance... not a very good chance, but a possibility. gollum / smeagol had not much chance, given that he had lived with the (absolutely) evil influence of the ring for about 500 years, but he certainly did prove that he was making conscious choices that were in alignment with "good." also, re your scenario... while i don't think that they make a decision at birth, i do think that any that show a smidgen of kindness or potential goodness are attacked, beaten, harassed, and / or killed some time along the way. i think it would be difficult for an orc to advance in years, surrounded by other orcs, being enslaved, surrounded by filth, being sent on horrible missions to kill and defile things, and retain a spark of goodness. not impossible, but very, very difficult. cheers -- .
aka. fili orc-enshield +++++++++++++++++++ the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield." this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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User
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Time
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does any one wish tolkien invented at least one good orc?
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boldog
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Sep 7 2013, 9:01pm
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Not really.....
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Rembrethil
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Sep 7 2013, 9:06pm
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ha! x2!!!!
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Maciliel
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Sep 9 2013, 5:42am
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some Pitiable and good thoughts...
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noWizardme
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Sep 10 2013, 4:17pm
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No Orc genocide as long as good guys fight male soldiers
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Semper Fi
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Sep 10 2013, 6:34pm
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That's very philosophical (O_O)
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RhodeCamelot
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Sep 11 2013, 12:54pm
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Not stupid at all
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Semper Fi
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Sep 7 2013, 10:18pm
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Have to agree Not Really
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IdrilofGondolin
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Sep 7 2013, 10:23pm
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No...
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Mat
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Sep 7 2013, 11:45pm
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Hmmmm.... Interesting.
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Joe-Mathews
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Sep 7 2013, 11:56pm
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Don't underestimate Gorbag and Shagrat:
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DanielLB
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Sep 8 2013, 12:03am
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They didn't seem all that good...
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Otaku-sempai
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Sep 8 2013, 11:26am
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It might be just me
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demnation
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Sep 8 2013, 12:46am
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The Orcs that captured Merry and Pippin
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Sep 8 2013, 9:32am
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Why not good orcs?
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Gorbadoc
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Sep 8 2013, 9:48am
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Could an Orc be raised to be good?
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Otaku-sempai
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Sep 8 2013, 11:34am
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Raising an Orc cub in a biased environment
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Semper Fi
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Sep 8 2013, 12:17pm
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True
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Otaku-sempai
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Sep 8 2013, 12:21pm
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Born evil
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Semper Fi
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Sep 8 2013, 2:43pm
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Destiny or Choice?
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Otaku-sempai
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Sep 8 2013, 2:54pm
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Human Nature
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Mat
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Sep 8 2013, 3:02pm
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Foir such a big Catholic
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Semper Fi
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Sep 8 2013, 5:24pm
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I would not equate Orcs to demons.
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Otaku-sempai
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Sep 8 2013, 8:52pm
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Here is a great excerpt from Letter 153:
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Mat
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Sep 9 2013, 3:53am
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Thanks for the citation...
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Otaku-sempai
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Sep 9 2013, 12:23pm
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Since it wasn't their choice to turn evil
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Semper Fi
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Sep 8 2013, 5:27pm
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Perhaps they had a choice...
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Rembrethil
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Sep 8 2013, 7:20pm
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lol!
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Maciliel
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Sep 9 2013, 5:39am
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Two points about irredeemability
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Brethil
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Sep 9 2013, 10:35pm
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What about half-orcs?
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Meneldor
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Sep 8 2013, 1:39am
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No, not really...
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dormouse
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Sep 8 2013, 5:59pm
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You might enjoy
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Aunt Dora Baggins
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Sep 9 2013, 7:52pm
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Always wanted to see this
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Fredeghar Wayfarer
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Sep 10 2013, 8:11am
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Idk if this analogy fits;
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RhodeCamelot
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Sep 11 2013, 2:38pm
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I don't.
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RosieLass
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Sep 11 2013, 3:24pm
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I know it's a dark place to go...
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Mat
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Sep 18 2013, 6:33pm
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I am not much of a fan of that idea
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RosieBaggins
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Sep 22 2013, 5:31pm
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