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trying to locate the Refusers

Elthir
Gondor

Aug 8 2013, 4:54pm


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trying to locate the Refusers [In reply to] Can't Post

I was surprised a bit to find Avari in Beleriand too, although in Quendi And Eldar [Q&E] Tolkien did note that the Sindar had become aware of 'small and secret groups' of Avari that had crept into Beleriand from the South. So not huge numbers here, it would seem.

Tolkien added that any individual Avar who joined with or was admitted among the Sindar [noting that 'it rarely happened' too] became a 'Calben', but that these Avari in general remained secretive, 'hostile to the Eldar and untrustworthy; and they dwelt in hidden places in the deeper woods or caves'. Were these Tatyarin Avari? That's what text later in the essay seems to say, for the Lindarin Avari are also noted as seemingly more friendly to the Eldar, often merging later in Eriador and the Anduin Vale, as noted.

Avari at heart here in Q&E it is noted that the Noldor asserted that most of the Teleri were Avari at heart, and that only the Eglain really regretted being left in Beleriand -- while the Teleri asserted that most of the Noldor in Aman itself were in heart Avari, and returned to Middle-earth when they discovered their mistake.

Hmm Smile



But perhaps Tolkien would later ask himself the same question however: did the Avari, 'the Refusers' really pass into Beleriand?



Quote

'Those who had never made the journey to the West Shores were called 'the Refusers' (Avari). It is doubtful if any of the Avari ever reached Beleriand or were actually known to the Numenoreans.'

JRRT, Of Dwarves And Men



This is a late text, certainly later than Quendi And Eldar [again, in which the Avari do make it to Beleriand]. And what about Eriador and the Anduin Vale, where these Elves appear to have later merged?

Eriador

Despite that Words, Phrases And Passages [WPP] is dated to around the same time as Quendi And Eldar, in WPP Tolkien notes [entry yrch]:



Quote

(...) Actually in the L.R. no Avarin language appears, and such Elves as appear are, if not actually High-Elves of Noldorin origin, of Eldarin origin, or small peoples that have come under Eldarin influence, and become assimilated.

(...) Avari would not, at this period, be found West of the Misty Mountains. In Eriador such Elves as remained, or were gathered under the protection of Elrond, were either Nandor, or else Sindar and Noldor, fugitives from the destruction of Beleriand...' (...) Many of them [Nandor] remained in Eriador, where they were probably the only Elvish inhabitants of that great region in the Second Age and early Third Age.'

JRRT, Words, Phrases And Passages




It appears there are no Avari in Eriador according to this. And I don't think [although I'm not wholly positive] that they are mentioned in Of Dwarves And Men [again itself a late text], at least, although we do hear of certain realms in Eriador where Elves could be found.

East of the Mountains of Mist


It had been noted in Quendi And Eldar that penni is found in the Wood Elven speech of the Anduin Vale, to my mind suggesting that some Avari had merged among the Silvan Elves, as agrees with the general description already noted, but in another late text, published in an Appendix to the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, titled The Silvan Elves And Their Speech [Unfinished Tales], there is the description that the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien were descendants of the Telerin Nandor, and they hid themselves in the woodlands...



Quote


'... and became a small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari: but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar,...'




To me this seems to distinguish them from Avari anyway. Maybe some Avari merged with them later? Although I realize lack of evidence is hardly evidence, if I recall correctly no later merging is noted here, in any case. I think the possibility remains [as compelling as that may or may not be] open that Tolkien simply means these were all Telerin Elves in origin, later joined by Sindar from the West.

Or not Smile

I mean if my suggestion here is really true, that would basically mean that Q&E had Avari in Beleriand, Eriador, and merging with some Silvan Elves east of the Misty Mountains -- but then Tolkien decides that no, they all stayed to the East of these lands.



Hmm. In any case, the Silvan Elves of Lorien are implied to have sailed Over Sea -- at least some of them, although the description, being brief and general, appears to imply that 'all' could. Granted, brief and general might explain itself: that is, the more detailed scenario could include Avarin Elves who would not sail West in any event. And Tolkien might not be interested in digressing about who wanted to sail West and who refused...

... but again, generally speaking sailing Over Sea doesn't seem all that 'refusical' to me. Or some other word.

Anyway I note Amroth's words to Nimrodel [another late text in Unfinished Tales] about sailing Over Sea.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 8 2013, 5:00pm)

Subject User Time
Speculation: What are the Avari like? thatlldo Send a private message to thatlldo Aug 6 2013, 6:01am
    I always thought of them..... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Aug 6 2013, 1:42pm
    Tribal Elves Fredeghar Wayfarer Send a private message to Fredeghar Wayfarer Aug 6 2013, 5:45pm
        Tatyarin Avari Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Aug 7 2013, 3:56pm
            It would seem strange CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Aug 7 2013, 6:11pm
                trying to locate the Refusers Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Aug 8 2013, 4:54pm
    Did the Avari affect the Chinese civilization? Faenoriel Send a private message to Faenoriel Aug 7 2013, 1:49pm
    avari vs teleri Cirashala Send a private message to Cirashala Aug 9 2013, 10:11pm

 
 
 

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