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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Apr 25 2013, 12:16am
Views: 212
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I can see the meaning of the defense, but it doesn't work for me.
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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The minimalist approach doesn't really make anything particulalrly better or easy to follow. What difference would a few more members with throw away lines have made, other than to have shown that these four (and Radagast) are not the only Wise Powers worth knowing in all Middle-Earth? As to Gandalf. . . not enough. They know he is a badass, sure, but they DON'T know what he is. Galadriel is already presented as something near to a lesser goddess in the other films. THat is certainly appropriate in relation to all the other members of The Fellowship, but not in relation to Holy Spirits, even those in limited incarnations. There is, again NOTHING to make clear that she is not somehow his superior. The worst likely scenario is that you will have audience members assuming erroneously such things as a notion that Galadriel could easily have defeated The Balrog and come away unscathed, or that if only she had been with The Fellowship, nothing could have gone awry etc. etc. etc. Talk to some non book fans of the film about their perceptions, especially based on the interaction in The Hobbit. See if some of them don't tell you they think she is A) more powerful and B) something like his boss. than the presence of Barliman, Farmer Maggot or Haldir in the original films, nor any more than the many unnamed members of The Council (indeed, the blonde beside Sir Ian in the council scene WAS Glorfindel, as was the mighty Elf standing behind Elrond at Minas Tirith, even though portrayed by a different actor, and no one can tell me different!!! lol). They are just other, speaking council members, like the members of the Jedi Council or some of the other Knights of The Round table or any other conferrence group ever seen in films whom we do not get a full biography on. Gildor wasn't Cirdan's representive, Galdor was, as I remember it. However, I do think this makes a difference. I am sure they thought about bringing more people there, but that would have caused some issues. One of them being that they wanted to show the White Council but probably knew they would not have time to explain what the WC actually is. So this had to be done without words - and how better to do that than to just show four beings every audience member knows of having a very high status and power? I might also want to repeat the argument from my first post: I think the very good camera direction and editing would have been much harder and the scene could not have been staged like it was, if there had been more people sitting around. Just putting other people there imho would just have created some Gigwits, Eigwits and Sigwits :-D . If you don't KNOW that Gandalf is an Angel, really, then what will be deduced by most from his behaviour in the film is not that he is merely of a deffering demeanor, but that he is less than those around him, literally: less wise, certainly less powerful, lower in hierarchy and lesser as a type of being. Placing the Elves above The Ainur: The Holy Spirits, even Holy Spirits in assumed, limited forms. . . bad business. I guess this is the point we will always disagree on ;) Audience will have remembered Gandalf as the kick-ass wizard, strategist and warrior who killed the Balrog, who was always in charge, who saved the day at Helm's Deep, who is so much wiser than Saruman, etc. pp. Galadriel on the other side was always left kind of ambigious in her status and imho still is (Tolkien left her ambigious as well, imho) and ESPECIALLY passive. A very passive actor with a mysterious aura who does not even come close to the gravity that Gandalf establishes both as a movie and as a book character. I simply cannot see how this is undermindes by their interaction in AUJ, but we have made our points over and over how we differ in interpreting some scenes/moments ;) That, at least, is how I felt people who are not familar to the lore reacted to her and Gandalf. "Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!" "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Issues about the White Council
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Smeagol Bagginsess
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Apr 23 2013, 11:01am
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My take on it.
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Arannir
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Apr 23 2013, 11:34am
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Yes. Radagast was technically a member of the Council, but...
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 23 2013, 2:42pm
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This...
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Arannir
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Apr 23 2013, 3:09pm
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That's a very good point
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MatthewJer18
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Apr 23 2013, 4:16pm
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Also,
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painjoiker
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Apr 23 2013, 4:36pm
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Agreed about Philippa Boyens' comment about Galadriel being "the most powerful being in Middle-earth"
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Radagast-Aiwendil
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Apr 23 2013, 4:39pm
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the boyens quote
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Maciliel
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Apr 23 2013, 6:40pm
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What amuses me so much
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Radagast-Aiwendil
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Apr 23 2013, 6:51pm
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peter, peter...
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Maciliel
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Apr 23 2013, 6:55pm
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(i tease peter jackson)
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Maciliel
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Apr 23 2013, 6:58pm
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Zing! I want Cobert to be present at all scripting decisions, if we cannot do so, for he
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 24 2013, 3:48am
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Sauron
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dubulous
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Apr 23 2013, 6:58pm
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It needs to be put under a microscope if that is her sincire opinion and if it is going to colour
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 24 2013, 3:55am
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Telepathic Galadriel
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Rostron2
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Apr 23 2013, 4:43pm
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And one does not mess with one's mother-in-law!
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Arannir
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Apr 23 2013, 4:48pm
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Quite True - he almost gave her a look like - oh well, here is the (more powerful) mother-in law checking in on me again
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ltnjmy
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Apr 23 2013, 6:19pm
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I agree
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MorgolKing
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Apr 23 2013, 5:49pm
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I took it as...
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sauget.diblosio
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Apr 23 2013, 7:13pm
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Telepathic communication
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Ardamírë
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Apr 23 2013, 5:55pm
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Doesn't Saruman...
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cats16
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Apr 23 2013, 6:10pm
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It's not the rings
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Ardamírë
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Apr 23 2013, 6:20pm
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Sorry I should clarify
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cats16
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Apr 23 2013, 6:34pm
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Rings or telepathy
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Ardamírë
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Apr 23 2013, 7:16pm
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Haha thank you
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cats16
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Apr 23 2013, 7:23pm
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No problem!
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Ardamírë
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Apr 23 2013, 7:29pm
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Huge agreement on 1 (Ahh, Glorfindel, where art thou), 3 (Gandalf is no one's lackey) And 5(Ainur are higher than Elves)
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 23 2013, 6:09pm
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My thoughts
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dubulous
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Apr 23 2013, 6:34pm
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I agree with your points, dubulous
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Kristin Thompson
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Apr 24 2013, 1:46am
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Galadriel...
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Guillaume
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Apr 24 2013, 2:01am
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Again, just talking about the book and not the film,
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Kristin Thompson
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Apr 24 2013, 2:41am
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Telepathy in your book
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Ardamírë
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Apr 24 2013, 2:38am
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Thanks!
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Kristin Thompson
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Apr 24 2013, 3:10am
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Magic
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Ardamírë
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Apr 24 2013, 4:02am
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Galadriel vanishing
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Brethil
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Apr 24 2013, 3:28am
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Passage of time
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Ardamírë
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Apr 24 2013, 4:05am
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Good explanation!
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Eleniel
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Apr 24 2013, 6:41am
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100%
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Arannir
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Apr 24 2013, 7:29am
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In some places I must disagree. In others not. Glorfindel and Cirdan would be no more confusing
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 24 2013, 4:13am
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A discussion re-visited ;-)
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Arannir
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Apr 24 2013, 7:28am
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I can see the meaning of the defense, but it doesn't work for me.
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 12:16am
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Well, I do talk to people who have no lore-interest...
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Arannir
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Apr 25 2013, 6:51am
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Interesting, for I often hear the opposite from those not familliar with the lore.
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 9:58pm
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Well...
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Arannir
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Apr 26 2013, 6:47am
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Galadriel's disappearance
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dubulous
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Apr 24 2013, 7:08am
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Introducing other Council members need not be confusing
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 24 2013, 2:12pm
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I wonder if Cirdans appearance would be confusing to the general audience?
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imin
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Apr 24 2013, 2:19pm
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Círdan did already appear in Jackson's RotK
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 24 2013, 2:35pm
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And how much did we see of him there? Or hear from him? or have anything spoken about him?
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imin
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Apr 24 2013, 3:32pm
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He was also shown in closer detail in the prologue...
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Eleniel
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Apr 24 2013, 3:35pm
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Círdan
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 24 2013, 8:33pm
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no i completely agree
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imin
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Apr 24 2013, 9:41pm
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I actually think a skilled director leaves such characters out...
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Arannir
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Apr 24 2013, 2:25pm
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That would depend on circumstances...
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 24 2013, 2:49pm
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However...
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Arannir
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Apr 24 2013, 2:57pm
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Well I would contend that the White Council is an established entity within Tolkien's canon...
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 24 2013, 3:14pm
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I certainly have nothing against what you describe...
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Arannir
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Apr 24 2013, 3:22pm
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I have to admit that my disappointment comes from
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sauget.diblosio
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Apr 24 2013, 3:30pm
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Precisely.
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 12:17am
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But such characters have already appeared
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sauget.diblosio
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Apr 24 2013, 2:59pm
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Then why not pair the Council of Elrond down to none save Elrond and The Fellowship???
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 12:23am
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I commented on this before...
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Arannir
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Apr 25 2013, 6:48am
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You have all the free people accounted for with the fellowhsip alone. No need for anyone else.. . except
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 9:45pm
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Well, exactly...
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Arannir
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Apr 26 2013, 6:50am
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Amen.
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 12:21am
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It gives a great many false notions and misconceptions to the many audience members who
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 24 2013, 3:14am
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I was under the impression
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Apr 23 2013, 9:51pm
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I agree with all your points
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Elenorflower
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Apr 24 2013, 11:25am
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problems with the WC IMO
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Sinister71
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Apr 24 2013, 12:47pm
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The tension wasn't invented...? Saruman was like this in the book //
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QuackingTroll
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Apr 24 2013, 12:55pm
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I'm going strictly by the films here.
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Sinister71
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Apr 24 2013, 12:59pm
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Well, what if Gandalf and Saruman make up in film 2 or 3
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QuackingTroll
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Apr 24 2013, 1:19pm
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wishful thinking IMO to be honest
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Sinister71
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Apr 24 2013, 1:36pm
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I said this earlier, but i never got the feeling that
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sauget.diblosio
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Apr 24 2013, 2:54pm
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I guess people see things differently
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Sinister71
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Apr 24 2013, 3:27pm
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The one change I'd make
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Elessar
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Apr 24 2013, 1:40pm
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I also didn't care for how sheepish Gandalf was.
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RosieLass
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Apr 24 2013, 4:01pm
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I had many problems with the way the White Council was handled.
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jtarkey
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Apr 25 2013, 4:51pm
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They couldn't resist the lure of the SUPER drama of discovery. It would have been SOO much more plausible if they had stuck to the Appendices
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 10:09pm
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concerning authority and the Istari
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Escapist
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Apr 25 2013, 10:23pm
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Prophets/Mystics. . . though they don't always hold to the prescribed edicts.
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 10:37pm
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