Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
In some places I must disagree. In others not. Glorfindel and Cirdan would be no more confusing

AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 24 2013, 4:13am


Views: 276
Shortcut
In some places I must disagree. In others not. Glorfindel and Cirdan would be no more confusing [In reply to] Can't Post

than the presence of Barliman, Farmer Maggot or Haldir in the original films, nor any more than the many unnamed members of The Council (indeed, the blonde beside Sir Ian in the council scene WAS Glorfindel, as was the mighty Elf standing behind Elrond at Minas Tirith, even though portrayed by a different actor, and no one can tell me different!!! lol). They are just other, speaking council members, like the members of the Jedi Council or some of the other Knights of The Round table or any other conferrence group ever seen in films whom we do not get a full biography on. Gildor wasn't Cirdan's representive, Galdor was, as I remember it.

Agreed on Gandalf's feelings concerning Saruman.

Agreed entirely about the telepathy, and very interested to read your work. I do wish that aspect as a power of the Wizards and not exclusively of Galadriel was slightly (only slightly) more plain in the films.

That last bit is a problem to me. Yes he presents with humility, but he is not obsequious, nor does he hold his tongue. He is not arrogant, but he is also not insecure about who he is or the role he plays, though he recognizes his limitations and is not afraid to admit them. What is more, the filmmakers have a large audience of individuals unaware of the lore of Middle-Earth. If you don't KNOW that Gandalf is an Angel, really, then what will be deduced by most from his behaviour in the film is not that he is merely of a deffering demeanor, but that he is less than those around him, literally: less wise, certainly less powerful, lower in hierarchy and lesser as a type of being. Placing the Elves above The Ainur: The Holy Spirits, even Holy Spirits in assumed, limited forms. . . bad business.

Gandalf is not Aragorn. He is not mortal. And while his current disguise and assumed identity and shape is 2,000 years old (quite old in its own right) he is from a time before the shaping of The Cosmos, in which he played a role, Olorin, Wisest of The Maiar. He has worn a hampering costume for his mission for many centuries, and his vision and memory have been dimmed by it, but they are not absent. He knows who he is, and he knows why he came.

In Reply To
A few points:

Strictly speaking, Cirdan was introduced in LOTR. He appears in the background of one shot of the Grey Havens scene. But he's never identified, and dragging him (or Gildor, his representative!) in the Council scene would be confusing.

Gandalf already has come to be uneasy about Saruman before the confrontation and locking-up scene. In "Shadow of the Past," he tells Frodo (in the book, of course, not the film), "I might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White, but something always held me back. [..] His knowledge is deep, but his pride has grown with it, and he takes ill any meddling." I think that's actually quite consistent with Ian's performance in FotR when he tells Frodo he's going to consult with Saruman. (He sounds like his enthusiasm is a bit forced.)

Coincidentally, I'm about to write a section on telepathy for my book-in-progress on the novels. Telepathy is not just between Ring-bearers. In the scene on the way back to Rivendell when the Elves and Gandalf sit talking from mind to mind, Celeborn seems to be in on the conversation, and I've always assumed Glorfindel and maybe Erestor were, too. But those with telepathic powers seem to be able to target the person to be "spoken" to in such a way that others would not be able to "listen in." When Frodo puts on the Ring on Amon Hen, he hears both Sauron and Gandalf speaking to him mentally. At that point, Gandalf is aware of Sauron, but Sauron is not aware of Gandalf. (There are other points where Gandalf says he is looking into Saruman's or Sauron's mind, and clearly they are not aware of it.) So I can imagine that Galadriel and Gandalf could carry on a conversation in Saruman's presence--and Elrond's as well--without their being aware of it.

Finally, and I think there is a crucial reason why Gandalf seems to be deferring to all three of the others to some extent in this scene: the filmmakers seem to have decided to give Gandalf a character arc across THE HOBBIT. He starts out somewhat unsure of his own power and plans, but I predict that, with Galadriel's encouragement he goes off to investigate the mystery of the Morgul blade and the Nazguls' tombs and in doing so gains confidence in his own power. The publicity stressed that Gandalf is younger than in LotR (though sixty years younger for a 2000-year-old being isn't much). My suspicion is that we'll see him grow and mature a bit, somewhat parallel to Bilbo's growth and maturation. This seems a bit silly to me, but it's also somewhat comparable to what the screenwriters did with Aragorn in LotR, taking a perfectly confident and willing heir to the throne and giving him doubts about his own adequacy for the role of king. This notion of character arcs is a cliche of contemporary Hollywood dramaturgy. The idea that you could have a character like the book Aragorn who would not change at all across the narrative is not in the Hollywood screenplay rulebook.

I quite agree with you that Gandalf is humble, at least in his lack of ambition for a leadership role. When Galadriel suggested him as leader of the White Council, he declined. His general attitude is that he doesn't want official leadership or a settled home or anything that would give him more than an advisory role with the peoples that he is supposed to be helping. Which is not to say that in the book he isn't perfectly aware of his own abilities (and his superiority in wisdom to most or all of those around him). He's not overly humble in that regard, but he doesn't want to be praised or given official titles.

Overall, I was fairly happy with the White Council scene in the film. There are things I don't like about it, like Saruman's silly lines about Radagast eating mushrooms. (What is it with the writers that they keep acting as though pipeweed is a drug rather than simply tobacco, and putting in other drug implications?) I very much like the way the film conveys that Elrond and Galadriel are close friends of Gandalf's, something that didn't come across in LotR very much at all. I think Galadriel's respect for Gandalf is reflected in that radiant smile she gives upon seeing him after a long separation. What bothers me most, perhaps, is that way Galadriel vanishes at the end. Nothing up to this point in LotR or THE HOBBIT suggests that any of these people can just vanish and presumably turn up somewhere else. The Three Rings don't make their keepers vanish, we know that. (Galadriel is wearing Nenya during the Mirror scene, but it's the Ring that is invisible, not her.) Gandalf seems a little startled by her disappearance, but not much. I wonder if we will ever get any explanation of that completely unnecessary disappearance.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Subject User Time
Issues about the White Council Smeagol Bagginsess Send a private message to Smeagol Bagginsess Apr 23 2013, 11:01am
    My take on it. Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 23 2013, 11:34am
    Yes. Radagast was technically a member of the Council, but... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Apr 23 2013, 2:42pm
        This... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 23 2013, 3:09pm
        That's a very good point MatthewJer18 Send a private message to MatthewJer18 Apr 23 2013, 4:16pm
            Also, painjoiker Send a private message to painjoiker Apr 23 2013, 4:36pm
    Agreed about Philippa Boyens' comment about Galadriel being "the most powerful being in Middle-earth" Radagast-Aiwendil Send a private message to Radagast-Aiwendil Apr 23 2013, 4:39pm
        the boyens quote Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 23 2013, 6:40pm
            What amuses me so much Radagast-Aiwendil Send a private message to Radagast-Aiwendil Apr 23 2013, 6:51pm
                peter, peter... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 23 2013, 6:55pm
                (i tease peter jackson) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 23 2013, 6:58pm
                Zing! I want Cobert to be present at all scripting decisions, if we cannot do so, for he AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 24 2013, 3:48am
            Sauron dubulous Send a private message to dubulous Apr 23 2013, 6:58pm
                It needs to be put under a microscope if that is her sincire opinion and if it is going to colour AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 24 2013, 3:55am
    Telepathic Galadriel Rostron2 Send a private message to Rostron2 Apr 23 2013, 4:43pm
        And one does not mess with one's mother-in-law! Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 23 2013, 4:48pm
        Quite True - he almost gave her a look like - oh well, here is the (more powerful) mother-in law checking in on me again ltnjmy Send a private message to ltnjmy Apr 23 2013, 6:19pm
    I agree MorgolKing Send a private message to MorgolKing Apr 23 2013, 5:49pm
        I took it as... sauget.diblosio Send a private message to sauget.diblosio Apr 23 2013, 7:13pm
    Telepathic communication Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 23 2013, 5:55pm
        Doesn't Saruman... cats16 Send a private message to cats16 Apr 23 2013, 6:10pm
            It's not the rings Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 23 2013, 6:20pm
                Sorry I should clarify cats16 Send a private message to cats16 Apr 23 2013, 6:34pm
                    Rings or telepathy Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 23 2013, 7:16pm
                        Haha thank you cats16 Send a private message to cats16 Apr 23 2013, 7:23pm
                            No problem! Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 23 2013, 7:29pm
    Huge agreement on 1 (Ahh, Glorfindel, where art thou), 3 (Gandalf is no one's lackey) And 5(Ainur are higher than Elves) AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 23 2013, 6:09pm
    My thoughts dubulous Send a private message to dubulous Apr 23 2013, 6:34pm
        I agree with your points, dubulous Kristin Thompson Send a private message to Kristin Thompson Apr 24 2013, 1:46am
            Galadriel... Guillaume Send a private message to Guillaume Apr 24 2013, 2:01am
                Again, just talking about the book and not the film, Kristin Thompson Send a private message to Kristin Thompson Apr 24 2013, 2:41am
            Telepathy in your book Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 24 2013, 2:38am
                Thanks! Kristin Thompson Send a private message to Kristin Thompson Apr 24 2013, 3:10am
                    Magic Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 24 2013, 4:02am
            Galadriel vanishing Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 24 2013, 3:28am
                Passage of time Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 24 2013, 4:05am
                Good explanation! Eleniel Send a private message to Eleniel Apr 24 2013, 6:41am
                    100% Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 24 2013, 7:29am
            In some places I must disagree. In others not. Glorfindel and Cirdan would be no more confusing AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 24 2013, 4:13am
                A discussion re-visited ;-) Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 24 2013, 7:28am
                    I can see the meaning of the defense, but it doesn't work for me. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 12:16am
                        Well, I do talk to people who have no lore-interest... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 25 2013, 6:51am
                            Interesting, for I often hear the opposite from those not familliar with the lore. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 9:58pm
                                Well... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 26 2013, 6:47am
            Galadriel's disappearance dubulous Send a private message to dubulous Apr 24 2013, 7:08am
            Introducing other Council members need not be confusing Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Apr 24 2013, 2:12pm
                I wonder if Cirdans appearance would be confusing to the general audience? imin Send a private message to imin Apr 24 2013, 2:19pm
                    Círdan did already appear in Jackson's RotK Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Apr 24 2013, 2:35pm
                        And how much did we see of him there? Or hear from him? or have anything spoken about him? imin Send a private message to imin Apr 24 2013, 3:32pm
                            He was also shown in closer detail in the prologue... Eleniel Send a private message to Eleniel Apr 24 2013, 3:35pm
                            Círdan Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Apr 24 2013, 8:33pm
                                no i completely agree imin Send a private message to imin Apr 24 2013, 9:41pm
                I actually think a skilled director leaves such characters out... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 24 2013, 2:25pm
                    That would depend on circumstances... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Apr 24 2013, 2:49pm
                        However... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 24 2013, 2:57pm
                            Well I would contend that the White Council is an established entity within Tolkien's canon... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Apr 24 2013, 3:14pm
                                I certainly have nothing against what you describe... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 24 2013, 3:22pm
                                I have to admit that my disappointment comes from sauget.diblosio Send a private message to sauget.diblosio Apr 24 2013, 3:30pm
                                    Precisely. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 12:17am
                    But such characters have already appeared sauget.diblosio Send a private message to sauget.diblosio Apr 24 2013, 2:59pm
                    Then why not pair the Council of Elrond down to none save Elrond and The Fellowship??? AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 12:23am
                        I commented on this before... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 25 2013, 6:48am
                            You have all the free people accounted for with the fellowhsip alone. No need for anyone else.. . except AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 9:45pm
                                Well, exactly... Arannir Send a private message to Arannir Apr 26 2013, 6:50am
                Amen. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 12:21am
        It gives a great many false notions and misconceptions to the many audience members who AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 24 2013, 3:14am
    I was under the impression Hamfast Gamgee Send a private message to Hamfast Gamgee Apr 23 2013, 9:51pm
    I agree with all your points Elenorflower Send a private message to Elenorflower Apr 24 2013, 11:25am
    problems with the WC IMO Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Apr 24 2013, 12:47pm
        The tension wasn't invented...? Saruman was like this in the book // QuackingTroll Send a private message to QuackingTroll Apr 24 2013, 12:55pm
            I'm going strictly by the films here. Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Apr 24 2013, 12:59pm
                Well, what if Gandalf and Saruman make up in film 2 or 3 QuackingTroll Send a private message to QuackingTroll Apr 24 2013, 1:19pm
                    wishful thinking IMO to be honest Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Apr 24 2013, 1:36pm
        I said this earlier, but i never got the feeling that sauget.diblosio Send a private message to sauget.diblosio Apr 24 2013, 2:54pm
            I guess people see things differently Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Apr 24 2013, 3:27pm
    The one change I'd make Elessar Send a private message to Elessar Apr 24 2013, 1:40pm
    I also didn't care for how sheepish Gandalf was. RosieLass Send a private message to RosieLass Apr 24 2013, 4:01pm
    I had many problems with the way the White Council was handled. jtarkey Send a private message to jtarkey Apr 25 2013, 4:51pm
        They couldn't resist the lure of the SUPER drama of discovery. It would have been SOO much more plausible if they had stuck to the Appendices AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 10:09pm
    concerning authority and the Istari Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Apr 25 2013, 10:23pm
        Prophets/Mystics. . . though they don't always hold to the prescribed edicts. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Apr 25 2013, 10:37pm

 
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.