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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Apr 24 2013, 4:13am
Views: 276
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In some places I must disagree. In others not. Glorfindel and Cirdan would be no more confusing
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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than the presence of Barliman, Farmer Maggot or Haldir in the original films, nor any more than the many unnamed members of The Council (indeed, the blonde beside Sir Ian in the council scene WAS Glorfindel, as was the mighty Elf standing behind Elrond at Minas Tirith, even though portrayed by a different actor, and no one can tell me different!!! lol). They are just other, speaking council members, like the members of the Jedi Council or some of the other Knights of The Round table or any other conferrence group ever seen in films whom we do not get a full biography on. Gildor wasn't Cirdan's representive, Galdor was, as I remember it. Agreed on Gandalf's feelings concerning Saruman. Agreed entirely about the telepathy, and very interested to read your work. I do wish that aspect as a power of the Wizards and not exclusively of Galadriel was slightly (only slightly) more plain in the films. That last bit is a problem to me. Yes he presents with humility, but he is not obsequious, nor does he hold his tongue. He is not arrogant, but he is also not insecure about who he is or the role he plays, though he recognizes his limitations and is not afraid to admit them. What is more, the filmmakers have a large audience of individuals unaware of the lore of Middle-Earth. If you don't KNOW that Gandalf is an Angel, really, then what will be deduced by most from his behaviour in the film is not that he is merely of a deffering demeanor, but that he is less than those around him, literally: less wise, certainly less powerful, lower in hierarchy and lesser as a type of being. Placing the Elves above The Ainur: The Holy Spirits, even Holy Spirits in assumed, limited forms. . . bad business. Gandalf is not Aragorn. He is not mortal. And while his current disguise and assumed identity and shape is 2,000 years old (quite old in its own right) he is from a time before the shaping of The Cosmos, in which he played a role, Olorin, Wisest of The Maiar. He has worn a hampering costume for his mission for many centuries, and his vision and memory have been dimmed by it, but they are not absent. He knows who he is, and he knows why he came. A few points: Strictly speaking, Cirdan was introduced in LOTR. He appears in the background of one shot of the Grey Havens scene. But he's never identified, and dragging him (or Gildor, his representative!) in the Council scene would be confusing. Gandalf already has come to be uneasy about Saruman before the confrontation and locking-up scene. In "Shadow of the Past," he tells Frodo (in the book, of course, not the film), "I might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White, but something always held me back. [..] His knowledge is deep, but his pride has grown with it, and he takes ill any meddling." I think that's actually quite consistent with Ian's performance in FotR when he tells Frodo he's going to consult with Saruman. (He sounds like his enthusiasm is a bit forced.) Coincidentally, I'm about to write a section on telepathy for my book-in-progress on the novels. Telepathy is not just between Ring-bearers. In the scene on the way back to Rivendell when the Elves and Gandalf sit talking from mind to mind, Celeborn seems to be in on the conversation, and I've always assumed Glorfindel and maybe Erestor were, too. But those with telepathic powers seem to be able to target the person to be "spoken" to in such a way that others would not be able to "listen in." When Frodo puts on the Ring on Amon Hen, he hears both Sauron and Gandalf speaking to him mentally. At that point, Gandalf is aware of Sauron, but Sauron is not aware of Gandalf. (There are other points where Gandalf says he is looking into Saruman's or Sauron's mind, and clearly they are not aware of it.) So I can imagine that Galadriel and Gandalf could carry on a conversation in Saruman's presence--and Elrond's as well--without their being aware of it. Finally, and I think there is a crucial reason why Gandalf seems to be deferring to all three of the others to some extent in this scene: the filmmakers seem to have decided to give Gandalf a character arc across THE HOBBIT. He starts out somewhat unsure of his own power and plans, but I predict that, with Galadriel's encouragement he goes off to investigate the mystery of the Morgul blade and the Nazguls' tombs and in doing so gains confidence in his own power. The publicity stressed that Gandalf is younger than in LotR (though sixty years younger for a 2000-year-old being isn't much). My suspicion is that we'll see him grow and mature a bit, somewhat parallel to Bilbo's growth and maturation. This seems a bit silly to me, but it's also somewhat comparable to what the screenwriters did with Aragorn in LotR, taking a perfectly confident and willing heir to the throne and giving him doubts about his own adequacy for the role of king. This notion of character arcs is a cliche of contemporary Hollywood dramaturgy. The idea that you could have a character like the book Aragorn who would not change at all across the narrative is not in the Hollywood screenplay rulebook. I quite agree with you that Gandalf is humble, at least in his lack of ambition for a leadership role. When Galadriel suggested him as leader of the White Council, he declined. His general attitude is that he doesn't want official leadership or a settled home or anything that would give him more than an advisory role with the peoples that he is supposed to be helping. Which is not to say that in the book he isn't perfectly aware of his own abilities (and his superiority in wisdom to most or all of those around him). He's not overly humble in that regard, but he doesn't want to be praised or given official titles. Overall, I was fairly happy with the White Council scene in the film. There are things I don't like about it, like Saruman's silly lines about Radagast eating mushrooms. (What is it with the writers that they keep acting as though pipeweed is a drug rather than simply tobacco, and putting in other drug implications?) I very much like the way the film conveys that Elrond and Galadriel are close friends of Gandalf's, something that didn't come across in LotR very much at all. I think Galadriel's respect for Gandalf is reflected in that radiant smile she gives upon seeing him after a long separation. What bothers me most, perhaps, is that way Galadriel vanishes at the end. Nothing up to this point in LotR or THE HOBBIT suggests that any of these people can just vanish and presumably turn up somewhere else. The Three Rings don't make their keepers vanish, we know that. (Galadriel is wearing Nenya during the Mirror scene, but it's the Ring that is invisible, not her.) Gandalf seems a little startled by her disappearance, but not much. I wonder if we will ever get any explanation of that completely unnecessary disappearance. "Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!" "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Issues about the White Council
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Smeagol Bagginsess
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Apr 23 2013, 11:01am
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My take on it.
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Arannir
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Apr 23 2013, 11:34am
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Yes. Radagast was technically a member of the Council, but...
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 23 2013, 2:42pm
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This...
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Arannir
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Apr 23 2013, 3:09pm
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That's a very good point
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MatthewJer18
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Apr 23 2013, 4:16pm
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Also,
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painjoiker
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Apr 23 2013, 4:36pm
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Agreed about Philippa Boyens' comment about Galadriel being "the most powerful being in Middle-earth"
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Radagast-Aiwendil
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Apr 23 2013, 4:39pm
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the boyens quote
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Maciliel
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Apr 23 2013, 6:40pm
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What amuses me so much
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Radagast-Aiwendil
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Apr 23 2013, 6:51pm
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peter, peter...
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Maciliel
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Apr 23 2013, 6:55pm
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(i tease peter jackson)
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Maciliel
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Apr 23 2013, 6:58pm
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Zing! I want Cobert to be present at all scripting decisions, if we cannot do so, for he
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 24 2013, 3:48am
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Sauron
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dubulous
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Apr 23 2013, 6:58pm
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It needs to be put under a microscope if that is her sincire opinion and if it is going to colour
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 24 2013, 3:55am
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Telepathic Galadriel
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Rostron2
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Apr 23 2013, 4:43pm
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And one does not mess with one's mother-in-law!
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Arannir
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Apr 23 2013, 4:48pm
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Quite True - he almost gave her a look like - oh well, here is the (more powerful) mother-in law checking in on me again
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ltnjmy
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Apr 23 2013, 6:19pm
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I agree
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MorgolKing
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Apr 23 2013, 5:49pm
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I took it as...
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sauget.diblosio
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Apr 23 2013, 7:13pm
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Telepathic communication
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Ardamírë
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Apr 23 2013, 5:55pm
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Doesn't Saruman...
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cats16
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Apr 23 2013, 6:10pm
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It's not the rings
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Ardamírë
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Apr 23 2013, 6:20pm
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Sorry I should clarify
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cats16
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Apr 23 2013, 6:34pm
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Rings or telepathy
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Ardamírë
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Apr 23 2013, 7:16pm
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Haha thank you
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cats16
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Apr 23 2013, 7:23pm
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No problem!
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Ardamírë
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Apr 23 2013, 7:29pm
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Huge agreement on 1 (Ahh, Glorfindel, where art thou), 3 (Gandalf is no one's lackey) And 5(Ainur are higher than Elves)
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 23 2013, 6:09pm
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My thoughts
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dubulous
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Apr 23 2013, 6:34pm
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I agree with your points, dubulous
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Kristin Thompson
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Apr 24 2013, 1:46am
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Galadriel...
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Guillaume
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Apr 24 2013, 2:01am
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Again, just talking about the book and not the film,
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Kristin Thompson
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Apr 24 2013, 2:41am
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Telepathy in your book
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Ardamírë
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Apr 24 2013, 2:38am
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Thanks!
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Kristin Thompson
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Apr 24 2013, 3:10am
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Magic
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Ardamírë
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Apr 24 2013, 4:02am
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Galadriel vanishing
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Brethil
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Apr 24 2013, 3:28am
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Passage of time
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Ardamírë
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Apr 24 2013, 4:05am
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Good explanation!
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Eleniel
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Apr 24 2013, 6:41am
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100%
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Arannir
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Apr 24 2013, 7:29am
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In some places I must disagree. In others not. Glorfindel and Cirdan would be no more confusing
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 24 2013, 4:13am
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A discussion re-visited ;-)
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Arannir
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Apr 24 2013, 7:28am
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I can see the meaning of the defense, but it doesn't work for me.
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 12:16am
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Well, I do talk to people who have no lore-interest...
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Arannir
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Apr 25 2013, 6:51am
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Interesting, for I often hear the opposite from those not familliar with the lore.
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 9:58pm
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Well...
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Arannir
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Apr 26 2013, 6:47am
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Galadriel's disappearance
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dubulous
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Apr 24 2013, 7:08am
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Introducing other Council members need not be confusing
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 24 2013, 2:12pm
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I wonder if Cirdans appearance would be confusing to the general audience?
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imin
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Apr 24 2013, 2:19pm
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Círdan did already appear in Jackson's RotK
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 24 2013, 2:35pm
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And how much did we see of him there? Or hear from him? or have anything spoken about him?
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imin
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Apr 24 2013, 3:32pm
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He was also shown in closer detail in the prologue...
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Eleniel
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Apr 24 2013, 3:35pm
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Círdan
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 24 2013, 8:33pm
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no i completely agree
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imin
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Apr 24 2013, 9:41pm
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I actually think a skilled director leaves such characters out...
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Arannir
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Apr 24 2013, 2:25pm
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That would depend on circumstances...
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 24 2013, 2:49pm
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However...
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Arannir
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Apr 24 2013, 2:57pm
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Well I would contend that the White Council is an established entity within Tolkien's canon...
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 24 2013, 3:14pm
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I certainly have nothing against what you describe...
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Arannir
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Apr 24 2013, 3:22pm
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I have to admit that my disappointment comes from
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sauget.diblosio
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Apr 24 2013, 3:30pm
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Precisely.
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 12:17am
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But such characters have already appeared
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sauget.diblosio
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Apr 24 2013, 2:59pm
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Then why not pair the Council of Elrond down to none save Elrond and The Fellowship???
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 12:23am
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I commented on this before...
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Arannir
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Apr 25 2013, 6:48am
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You have all the free people accounted for with the fellowhsip alone. No need for anyone else.. . except
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 9:45pm
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Well, exactly...
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Arannir
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Apr 26 2013, 6:50am
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Amen.
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 12:21am
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It gives a great many false notions and misconceptions to the many audience members who
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 24 2013, 3:14am
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I was under the impression
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Apr 23 2013, 9:51pm
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I agree with all your points
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Elenorflower
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Apr 24 2013, 11:25am
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problems with the WC IMO
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Sinister71
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Apr 24 2013, 12:47pm
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The tension wasn't invented...? Saruman was like this in the book //
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QuackingTroll
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Apr 24 2013, 12:55pm
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I'm going strictly by the films here.
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Sinister71
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Apr 24 2013, 12:59pm
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Well, what if Gandalf and Saruman make up in film 2 or 3
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QuackingTroll
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Apr 24 2013, 1:19pm
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wishful thinking IMO to be honest
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Sinister71
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Apr 24 2013, 1:36pm
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I said this earlier, but i never got the feeling that
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sauget.diblosio
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Apr 24 2013, 2:54pm
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I guess people see things differently
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Sinister71
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Apr 24 2013, 3:27pm
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The one change I'd make
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Elessar
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Apr 24 2013, 1:40pm
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I also didn't care for how sheepish Gandalf was.
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RosieLass
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Apr 24 2013, 4:01pm
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I had many problems with the way the White Council was handled.
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jtarkey
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Apr 25 2013, 4:51pm
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They couldn't resist the lure of the SUPER drama of discovery. It would have been SOO much more plausible if they had stuck to the Appendices
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 10:09pm
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concerning authority and the Istari
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Escapist
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Apr 25 2013, 10:23pm
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Prophets/Mystics. . . though they don't always hold to the prescribed edicts.
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 10:37pm
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