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dubulous
Rohan
Apr 23 2013, 6:34pm
Views: 607
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1. Yes, there were more members in the White Council but apart from Celeborn (who, though a likely member, isn't even a confirmed member) none of them had been previously introduced, so to add Cirdan or others would have required introducing new characters, which would have taken an unnecessary amount of time for a mere subplot. I don't think having random, unnamed characters in the background would have worked because this is meant to be a very specific set of very wise and powerful people, unlike the Council of Elrond where a much larger variety of representatives of different races were summoned. 2. Was Saruman's behavior really that obvious or do we just think that because we already know what he's going to become? Elrond agreed with him and was backing him up but nobody seems to have trouble with that because we know that he's good. I don't think Saruman came across as unnecessarily evil - proud and a bit arrogant maybe, but that's pretty much in sync with how he was, even before he "abandoned reason for madness". 3. How does having to answer questions make him the inferior one? It just makes him the one with the latest intelligence. Besides, at this time point in time he actually is inferior to Saruman who is the head of the council and therefore well within his rights to be asking questions. 4. Galadriel's ability to see into people's minds is not an invention of the movies and I'm not sure how it could be interpreted as a sign of superiority. Even the maiar aren't capable of everything but each of them have their own special set of strengths and skills. Saruman's are his voice and his skills with machinery (and I'm not saying that's all he's capable of, but those are his greatest strengths). If he can't intercept an exchange of thoughts between another maia and a high elf whose special gift happens to be mind-reading, and who both share the connection of the three rings which Saruman does not possess, how does that make him inferior? 5. Bowing can also be a simple greeting. It's not like Gandalf is kneeling down in front of Galadriel and professing to be her loyal servant. Also, there is a huge difference between being inferior and being humble. All in all, I just don't get all this complaining about inferiority vs. superiority, and who should be bowing down to whom, especially when it comes to Gandalf. Isn't he a Grey Pilgrim by his own choice? The very fact that he doesn't want superiority is where his greatest wisdom (and superiority) lies. The fact that he is of maiar origin is insignificant when he's the one who chooses not to place himself above anyone else. Gandalf's humility is one of his greatest attributes and I think these films are doing a pretty great job of portraying him.
(This post was edited by dubulous on Apr 23 2013, 6:40pm)
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Issues about the White Council
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Smeagol Bagginsess
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Apr 23 2013, 11:01am
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My take on it.
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Arannir
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Apr 23 2013, 11:34am
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Yes. Radagast was technically a member of the Council, but...
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 23 2013, 2:42pm
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This...
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Arannir
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Apr 23 2013, 3:09pm
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That's a very good point
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MatthewJer18
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Apr 23 2013, 4:16pm
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Also,
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painjoiker
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Apr 23 2013, 4:36pm
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Agreed about Philippa Boyens' comment about Galadriel being "the most powerful being in Middle-earth"
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Radagast-Aiwendil
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Apr 23 2013, 4:39pm
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the boyens quote
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Maciliel
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Apr 23 2013, 6:40pm
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What amuses me so much
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Radagast-Aiwendil
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Apr 23 2013, 6:51pm
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peter, peter...
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Maciliel
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Apr 23 2013, 6:55pm
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(i tease peter jackson)
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Maciliel
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Apr 23 2013, 6:58pm
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Zing! I want Cobert to be present at all scripting decisions, if we cannot do so, for he
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 24 2013, 3:48am
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Sauron
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dubulous
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Apr 23 2013, 6:58pm
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It needs to be put under a microscope if that is her sincire opinion and if it is going to colour
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 24 2013, 3:55am
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Telepathic Galadriel
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Rostron2
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Apr 23 2013, 4:43pm
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And one does not mess with one's mother-in-law!
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Arannir
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Apr 23 2013, 4:48pm
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Quite True - he almost gave her a look like - oh well, here is the (more powerful) mother-in law checking in on me again
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ltnjmy
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Apr 23 2013, 6:19pm
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I agree
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MorgolKing
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Apr 23 2013, 5:49pm
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I took it as...
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sauget.diblosio
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Apr 23 2013, 7:13pm
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Telepathic communication
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Ardamírë
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Apr 23 2013, 5:55pm
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Doesn't Saruman...
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cats16
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Apr 23 2013, 6:10pm
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It's not the rings
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Ardamírë
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Apr 23 2013, 6:20pm
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Sorry I should clarify
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cats16
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Apr 23 2013, 6:34pm
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Rings or telepathy
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Ardamírë
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Apr 23 2013, 7:16pm
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Haha thank you
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cats16
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Apr 23 2013, 7:23pm
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No problem!
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Ardamírë
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Apr 23 2013, 7:29pm
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Huge agreement on 1 (Ahh, Glorfindel, where art thou), 3 (Gandalf is no one's lackey) And 5(Ainur are higher than Elves)
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 23 2013, 6:09pm
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My thoughts
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dubulous
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Apr 23 2013, 6:34pm
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I agree with your points, dubulous
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Kristin Thompson
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Apr 24 2013, 1:46am
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Galadriel...
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Guillaume
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Apr 24 2013, 2:01am
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Again, just talking about the book and not the film,
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Kristin Thompson
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Apr 24 2013, 2:41am
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Telepathy in your book
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Ardamírë
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Apr 24 2013, 2:38am
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Thanks!
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Kristin Thompson
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Apr 24 2013, 3:10am
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Magic
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Ardamírë
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Apr 24 2013, 4:02am
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Galadriel vanishing
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Brethil
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Apr 24 2013, 3:28am
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Passage of time
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Ardamírë
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Apr 24 2013, 4:05am
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Good explanation!
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Eleniel
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Apr 24 2013, 6:41am
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100%
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Arannir
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Apr 24 2013, 7:29am
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In some places I must disagree. In others not. Glorfindel and Cirdan would be no more confusing
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 24 2013, 4:13am
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A discussion re-visited ;-)
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Arannir
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Apr 24 2013, 7:28am
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I can see the meaning of the defense, but it doesn't work for me.
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 12:16am
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Well, I do talk to people who have no lore-interest...
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Arannir
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Apr 25 2013, 6:51am
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Interesting, for I often hear the opposite from those not familliar with the lore.
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 9:58pm
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Well...
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Arannir
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Apr 26 2013, 6:47am
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Galadriel's disappearance
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dubulous
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Apr 24 2013, 7:08am
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Introducing other Council members need not be confusing
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 24 2013, 2:12pm
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I wonder if Cirdans appearance would be confusing to the general audience?
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imin
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Apr 24 2013, 2:19pm
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Círdan did already appear in Jackson's RotK
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 24 2013, 2:35pm
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And how much did we see of him there? Or hear from him? or have anything spoken about him?
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imin
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Apr 24 2013, 3:32pm
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He was also shown in closer detail in the prologue...
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Eleniel
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Apr 24 2013, 3:35pm
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Círdan
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 24 2013, 8:33pm
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no i completely agree
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imin
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Apr 24 2013, 9:41pm
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I actually think a skilled director leaves such characters out...
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Arannir
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Apr 24 2013, 2:25pm
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That would depend on circumstances...
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 24 2013, 2:49pm
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However...
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Arannir
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Apr 24 2013, 2:57pm
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Well I would contend that the White Council is an established entity within Tolkien's canon...
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Otaku-sempai
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Apr 24 2013, 3:14pm
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I certainly have nothing against what you describe...
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Arannir
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Apr 24 2013, 3:22pm
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I have to admit that my disappointment comes from
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sauget.diblosio
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Apr 24 2013, 3:30pm
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Precisely.
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 12:17am
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But such characters have already appeared
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sauget.diblosio
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Apr 24 2013, 2:59pm
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Then why not pair the Council of Elrond down to none save Elrond and The Fellowship???
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 12:23am
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I commented on this before...
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Arannir
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Apr 25 2013, 6:48am
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You have all the free people accounted for with the fellowhsip alone. No need for anyone else.. . except
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 9:45pm
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Well, exactly...
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Arannir
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Apr 26 2013, 6:50am
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Amen.
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 12:21am
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It gives a great many false notions and misconceptions to the many audience members who
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 24 2013, 3:14am
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I was under the impression
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Apr 23 2013, 9:51pm
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I agree with all your points
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Elenorflower
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Apr 24 2013, 11:25am
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problems with the WC IMO
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Sinister71
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Apr 24 2013, 12:47pm
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The tension wasn't invented...? Saruman was like this in the book //
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QuackingTroll
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Apr 24 2013, 12:55pm
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I'm going strictly by the films here.
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Sinister71
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Apr 24 2013, 12:59pm
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Well, what if Gandalf and Saruman make up in film 2 or 3
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QuackingTroll
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Apr 24 2013, 1:19pm
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wishful thinking IMO to be honest
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Sinister71
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Apr 24 2013, 1:36pm
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I said this earlier, but i never got the feeling that
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sauget.diblosio
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Apr 24 2013, 2:54pm
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I guess people see things differently
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Sinister71
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Apr 24 2013, 3:27pm
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The one change I'd make
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Elessar
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Apr 24 2013, 1:40pm
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I also didn't care for how sheepish Gandalf was.
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RosieLass
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Apr 24 2013, 4:01pm
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I had many problems with the way the White Council was handled.
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jtarkey
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Apr 25 2013, 4:51pm
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They couldn't resist the lure of the SUPER drama of discovery. It would have been SOO much more plausible if they had stuck to the Appendices
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 10:09pm
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concerning authority and the Istari
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Escapist
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Apr 25 2013, 10:23pm
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Prophets/Mystics. . . though they don't always hold to the prescribed edicts.
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AinurOlorin
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Apr 25 2013, 10:37pm
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