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maciliel-thoughts

Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 15 2013, 3:56am


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maciliel-thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

 
apologies for the late reply. i had wanted to reread the whole of the silmarilion up to the point of our current discussion.

The chapter begins with Melkor running off and the Valar in pursuit of him. It's mentioned that Melkor is still able to change his form "or walk unclad." Was there ever really any chance then of catching him?

no.

He comes to forgotten regions in the south where Ungoliant dwells. It is said that she was once in the service of Melkor before disowning him to become her own master. It is then said that she took the shape of a monstrous spider. So what is Ungoliant? She's obviously not just a spider. Some sort of Maia would be my guess. I don't think that seems very inspired, though. Any other ideas?

upon rereading, i was struck with a portion of the text that stated that ungoliant came into being as melkor's envy errupted within his heart:

"The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë"

previously i had thought her a maia that chose to slip into the world when she would (many maiar live outside of arda). i still think this is a possibility, but i really like the poetic thought that ungoliant is the manifestation of melkor's envy. that is all she is. it explains her insatiable hunger.

Melkor visits her and here the published text differs wildly from Tolkien's manuscript. He has an entire conversation between the two of them. Ungoliant is told to be ravenously hungry, so Melkor feeds her gems to strengthen her so that she's strong enough to do his bidding. Then notice this little twist in Melkor's words: "...and if thou art still hungry when we meet again" (italics mine). He means for them to part ways, not go to the Two Trees together. That will come into play later.
It's said that in Valinor there was no winter, but that the seasons are at the bidding of the Valar. Yavanna especially is described as in charge of the "times for the flowering and the ripening of all things that grew." What do you think of this cycle? I do like the more fantastical nature of, well, nature in the early years. Even with the advents of the Sun and Moon later the world is changing more and more to be like the world we know today. I like that the change is subtle and begins so early in history.


interesting, but a little at odds with some other things in the text, like aman holds all the kelvar and olvar that ever were or will be... well, some of those species need cold/colder weather to survive, so how can this be if there was no fall or winter in aman? perhaps yavanna set those particular species aside in an enchanted sleep.

Finwe doesn't attend the feast, and Feanor decides to withhold the Silmarils from the eyes of the Elves and Valar. What do you think of these decisions? Obviously, they're bad in hindsight, but without that knowledge, do you think they were wrong choices? I think they're both wrong due to pride in both Finwe and Feanor. Many tragic circumstances could have been averted if pride were not such a vice to our characters.

i've been thinking a lot lately about miriel and finwe. finwe was said not to have patience, and this helped shut miriel's heart against the idea of ever coming back. his reasoning was that he wanted to bring many children into the world. so, many things are discussed and decided, and finwe gets a new wife, and fathers four more children. this second marriage and these children are still relatively young when finwe decides to abandon them, and go live in exile with feanor at formenos. the same feanor that put a sharp blade up against one of his other children. finwe's focus seems rather narrow.

Melkor then travels with Ungoliant to the Two Trees, destroys them, and then scurries away in her Unlight to Formenos and the Silmarils. Tolkien's version, though, has Ungoliant destroying the Trees as a cover for Melkor. He didn't enter into Valinor until after she destroyed them. He goes to the Ring of Doom and defiles it before heading off to Formenos: a location that he hadn't told Ungoliant about. He didn't want her with him while getting the Silmarils, and didn't actually intend to meet up with her again at all. But she overtakes him on the way so that they end up there together anyway. Which version do you prefer? Which do you think is stronger? I prefer the "separated" version, because it demonstrates more clearly Melkor's and Ungoliant's selfishness. I also like that they're more antagonistic towards each other, rather than the tag-team they're portrayed as in the published version.

it's rather believable that melkor would be seeking to double-cross an ally, even as he was making overtures to that ally. i like that rendition.

i was also struck by the visuals of the text. this is a world that has only starlight, except for the light of the two trees in aman. the elves who live there have never known aman without that light. melkor and ungoliant not only kill the light of the trees, but they choke off the light of the stars. the text speaks of the bewildered and scared cries of the teleri on tol erresea, alone in the dark. that entire land was choked in ungoliant's poisonous, unholy darkness, and only manwe's hill stood still in light (forgive me, i'm drawing upon memory, as my book is upstairs). definitely a lonely, scary picture.

i also wonder at ungoliant's hunger. yes, she cannot be sated. but i wonder if by trying to eat what cannot satisfy her, her hunger just increases.

i find ungoliant scarier than melkor. i also wonder at melkor, and sauron, and saruman and all like them who once conversed and walked with beauty... and who now spend their time with orcs, giant spiders, and other hideous things, and i want to ask them... really? you prefer the company of these hideous creatures to elves men, maiar... or any of the beauty that was created by yavanna or varda? really?

it's one thing to envy, it's one thing to want to dominate... but to want to wallow in filth? is it self-hatred? i'm not sure it's that, but it's a long journey from where they were.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by dernwyn on Apr 15 2013, 3:53pm)

Subject User Time
**Silmarillion discusion, Chapter 8: Of the Darkening of Valinor** Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 8 2013, 10:48pm
    I'm not convinced Hamfast Gamgee Send a private message to Hamfast Gamgee Apr 8 2013, 11:14pm
        Guards Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 8 2013, 11:27pm
            Even the sentries on holiday AGAIN? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 9 2013, 10:46am
                I hadn't even thought of that! Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 9 2013, 5:33pm
                    That's why I thought the feast feels "fey" Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 9 2013, 6:27pm
                        I think it's a combination Finwe Send a private message to Finwe Apr 9 2013, 7:53pm
                            Ultimately I think its a combination as well Finwe Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 10 2013, 12:45am
                                Morgoth's Ring Finwe Send a private message to Finwe Apr 10 2013, 2:01am
                                    Ice Pillars Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 10 2013, 2:09am
                                        You could be correct Finwe Send a private message to Finwe Apr 10 2013, 2:20am
                                            Yes, definitely somewhere! Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 10 2013, 2:54am
                        Possibly overconfidence? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 9 2013, 7:56pm
                            overconfidence and naivete? telain Send a private message to telain Apr 13 2013, 12:17am
    The Darkening of Valinor - thoughts on the chapter Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 9 2013, 2:46am
        "the primeval devourer of light" noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 9 2013, 11:17am
            True N-W-M, and in addition... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 9 2013, 4:49pm
                What we know, and don't know, about Ungoliant noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 9 2013, 9:57pm
                    Mulling on Ungoliant Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 10 2013, 12:02am
                    Ungoliant Finwe Send a private message to Finwe Apr 10 2013, 2:14am
                        True - she comes from darkness it seems, in either version Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 10 2013, 2:25am
                        Philosophical and in-world-theological problems? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 10 2013, 6:32am
                            The sprits called forth, such as Ungoliant Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 10 2013, 2:06pm
                    *applause and guffaws* CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 11 2013, 9:06pm
                    don't read this post after dark... telain Send a private message to telain Apr 13 2013, 12:46am
    My thoughts Finwe Send a private message to Finwe Apr 9 2013, 7:31pm
        One more thing Finwe Send a private message to Finwe Apr 9 2013, 8:10pm
            I often think that too. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 9 2013, 8:51pm
                Ungoliant and the sometimes puzzling Valar behavior Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 9 2013, 10:48pm
            well elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Apr 10 2013, 12:58pm
                You and I agree Finwe Send a private message to Finwe Apr 10 2013, 3:59pm
                    The Valar and Ungoliant elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Apr 10 2013, 9:42pm
                        The timing of Ungoliant settling in Avathar Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 11 2013, 5:47pm
                            Sounds plausible! I like the idea of Ungoliant the elf-stalker // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 11 2013, 9:02pm
                                Yes she might have quite a resume...! (And discretion and Valar...hahahah!) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 11 2013, 10:01pm
                            agreed! things are "taking shape" telain Send a private message to telain Apr 13 2013, 12:56am
                                Very good point Telain about other spirits "out there" Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 13 2013, 2:08am
                                    clothes really do make the Maiar telain Send a private message to telain Apr 14 2013, 11:07pm
                                        Very true on Primordial Fear Telain Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 16 2013, 12:29am
    a few answers elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Apr 10 2013, 12:39pm
    Some answers CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 11 2013, 9:29pm
        Good points Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 12 2013, 2:39am
            I have a (partial) defence of Feanor - which I'm preparing as part of discussion of next chapter... // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 12 2013, 7:56am
                Your ideas on Feanor Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 12 2013, 11:43am
            just was reading the chapter last night Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 12 2013, 10:18am
                What an interesting idea! // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 12 2013, 11:21am
                Ungoliant is almost a bad Bombadil CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 12 2013, 1:05pm
                    Her unending hunger Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 12 2013, 1:10pm
                        Yes, her hatred is fascinating too CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 12 2013, 1:20pm
                            I really like this - she consumes the reaminder of her goodness Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 12 2013, 1:35pm
        so why is everyone so nuts over feanor? Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 16 2013, 3:06am
            Feanor had a good image consultant in his author CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 16 2013, 3:59am
            He's an unlikeable artist squire Send a private message to squire Apr 16 2013, 4:09am
                Artists and stereotypes CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 16 2013, 4:45am
                    "King of Planet Unreasonable" noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 16 2013, 11:17am
                        question about form... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 16 2013, 11:23am
                            I started the next chapter... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 16 2013, 12:08pm
                                hurrah! Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 16 2013, 12:15pm
    Melkor & Ungoliant are like Frodo & Sam CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 11 2013, 9:31pm
        Wow interesting dark parallel Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 12 2013, 2:43am
            Could this be chapter 1? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 13 2013, 4:43pm
                True, it could be a starting point, but the feel would definitely change Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 13 2013, 7:20pm
                    I agree, it wouldn't fee do mythical. Also, Eru would be much more distant. // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 13 2013, 8:04pm
                        It links up with you great thread about his writing process... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 13 2013, 9:47pm
                    The Sil was not really ready for prime time in the late 1940s squire Send a private message to squire Apr 14 2013, 12:19am
                        To do with how Tolkien imagined the Sil, I think noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 14 2013, 10:39am
                            It's a complex proposition, following Tolkien's process here squire Send a private message to squire Apr 14 2013, 3:16pm
                                Well, if The Hobbit is any indication CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 15 2013, 1:35am
                                    who looks likely to be Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 15 2013, 1:47am
    maciliel-thoughts Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 15 2013, 3:56am
        Wonderful - thank you! sador Send a private message to sador Apr 15 2013, 2:45pm
            thanks, sador Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 15 2013, 2:51pm
        Intentional descent, or accidental? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 16 2013, 12:43am
            "Y' get accustomed to th' smell." squire Send a private message to squire Apr 16 2013, 1:12am
                ...and if it smells troubling today noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 16 2013, 11:22am
                Tolkien's villians - can we deduce any general points? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 16 2013, 1:51pm
    ungoliant boldog Send a private message to boldog Apr 15 2013, 9:54am
        A brief appearance in each book noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 15 2013, 1:53pm
            And the mosters Beren fought with on his way to Doriath. // sador Send a private message to sador Apr 15 2013, 2:37pm
                Imagine leaving Ungoliant out of the Chapter! noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 15 2013, 8:37pm
                    Ungoliant from Arda Reconstructed CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 16 2013, 2:07am
                        Melkor killing the Trees extends the tale Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 16 2013, 2:43am
        Me too CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 16 2013, 12:25am
    Late for the party sador Send a private message to sador Apr 15 2013, 2:35pm
        The forgotten wife CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 16 2013, 12:35am
            the sad fate of indis, and the rulership of the noldor Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 16 2013, 1:10am
            the ruler of the noldor -- high queen galadriel Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 16 2013, 1:12am
        Indis & Finwe Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 16 2013, 1:48am
    Gollum/Ungoliant Finwe Send a private message to Finwe Apr 15 2013, 9:29pm
        Good points CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 16 2013, 12:13am

 
 
 

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