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It's a complex proposition, following Tolkien's process here

squire
Half-elven

Apr 14 2013, 3:16pm

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It's a complex proposition, following Tolkien's process here [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm not sure you've got the sequence of writing quite right; Tolkien had already substantially written the Sil before he started on The Hobbit, much less LotR. His audience for the Sil in the 1920s and 1930s was certainly not children but rather was largely, almost exclusively, himself -- with occasional reveals to close friends from his academic work (C. S. Lewis wrote a clever commentary on the 'Lay of Luthien' in response to such a glimpse). When he was first asked if there was anything else to be published after the success of The Hobbit, he submitted his most recent manuscript for the Sil. It began with a version of the 'Valaquenta' (introducing the Valar as characters), with no trace of the 'Ainulindale' (describing the Creation); it then dived right into the making of the Two Trees and the Awakening of the Elves. I'm not sure how much he ever believed in starting with an "exciting and accessible story", given how all his books begin slow and then speed up, but he certainly was not locked in to the idea that mythic cycles must start with their creation myth; at the time, the Sil was really about the Elves, not Middle-earth as a concept.

By the time he revisited his writing of the Sil, in the late 1940s, there was no question of writing anything for children, since LotR had long since broken out of that market; but the idea of restructuring the Sil to give its readers a more engaging opening became (if indeed he gave such an idea any thought) even more remote, not less remote, for just that reason. Adults, in Tolkien's mind, should be able to appreciate complex stories on their own merits as tales well told. Whether he was right as far as the Sil is concerned, we'll actually never know because we'll never read the book the way he might have completed it for publication.

Once I waded into The History of Middle-earth books, I discovered just how complicated the composition of what we now call The Silmarillion was. Its sections, and tales, are now arranged in a "chronological" order. That does reflect the order that Tolkien wanted them read in, but not the order in which he wrote them (or their predecessors). And Christopher Tolkien, for the understandable reason that there was no one satisfactory tradition to refer to, abandoned his father's determination from the beginning to present the Sil within a 'frame narrative', that is, as a set of tales and myths that are retold to, or by, a later traveler to the Elvish Faerie. That was how he had hoped to make the stories more 'accessible', as you put it, to a modern reader. (The same authorial/mock-editorial instinct can be found in JRRT's somewhat hesitant devices of "Bilbo's memoirs" and "The Red Book" in The Hobbit and LotR.)

So although it would probably be wrong to say that Tolkien would approve of a restructuring of the Sil to start with the attack on the Two Trees simply for the sake of a dramatic opening, it is equally unhelpful to say that he expected his readers to slog through the Music of the Ainur when they first cracked open the Sil - except maybe when he began to grandly reconceive it as a full mythic cycle after finishing LotR. But at that time he also began to write many of the Sil's tales in the more fleshed-out and colloquial (relatively speaking) style that he had mastered from his years with The Hobbit and LotR. The result is best seen in The Children of Hurin, but he never came close to rewriting the entire Sil that way, unfortunately; nor would he necessarily have applied that style to the more remote and cosmological episodes like the Attack on the Trees in any case, since he himself increasingly saw the Sil as a collection of various tales told in various styles.

Certainly if anyone were to undertake a filmic version of the work, the last thing I should think the writers would feel constrained to follow is the apparent structure of the 1977 published text. Although I am not sure just how much I want to see any of it translated into a film, given the commercial and cultural constraints such a project would have to labor under - which would be far worse than the minor and major surgeries that the writers of the current New Line films of Tolkien's books evidently have felt compelled to perform.

squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary

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Subject	User	Time
Silmarillion discusion, Chapter 8: Of the Darkening of Valinor	Ardam�r�	Apr 8 2013, 10:48pm
I'm not convinced	Hamfast Gamgee	Apr 8 2013, 11:14pm
Guards	Ardam�r�	Apr 8 2013, 11:27pm
Even the sentries on holiday AGAIN?	noWizardme	Apr 9 2013, 10:46am
I hadn't even thought of that!	Ardam�r�	Apr 9 2013, 5:33pm
That's why I thought the feast feels "fey"	Brethil	Apr 9 2013, 6:27pm
I think it's a combination	Finwe	Apr 9 2013, 7:53pm
Ultimately I think its a combination as well Finwe	Brethil	Apr 10 2013, 12:45am
Morgoth's Ring	Finwe	Apr 10 2013, 2:01am
Ice Pillars	Ardam�r�	Apr 10 2013, 2:09am
You could be correct	Finwe	Apr 10 2013, 2:20am
Yes, definitely somewhere!	Ardam�r�	Apr 10 2013, 2:54am
Possibly overconfidence?	CuriousG	Apr 9 2013, 7:56pm
overconfidence and naivete?	telain	Apr 13 2013, 12:17am
The Darkening of Valinor - thoughts on the chapter	Brethil	Apr 9 2013, 2:46am
"the primeval devourer of light"	noWizardme	Apr 9 2013, 11:17am
True N-W-M, and in addition...	Brethil	Apr 9 2013, 4:49pm
What we know, and don't know, about Ungoliant	noWizardme	Apr 9 2013, 9:57pm
Mulling on Ungoliant	Brethil	Apr 10 2013, 12:02am
Ungoliant	Finwe	Apr 10 2013, 2:14am
True - she comes from darkness it seems, in either version	Brethil	Apr 10 2013, 2:25am
Philosophical and in-world-theological problems?	noWizardme	Apr 10 2013, 6:32am
The sprits called forth, such as Ungoliant	Brethil	Apr 10 2013, 2:06pm
applause and guffaws	CuriousG	Apr 11 2013, 9:06pm
don't read this post after dark...	telain	Apr 13 2013, 12:46am
My thoughts	Finwe	Apr 9 2013, 7:31pm
One more thing	Finwe	Apr 9 2013, 8:10pm
I often think that too.	CuriousG	Apr 9 2013, 8:51pm
Ungoliant and the sometimes puzzling Valar behavior	Brethil	Apr 9 2013, 10:48pm
well	elostirion74	Apr 10 2013, 12:58pm
You and I agree	Finwe	Apr 10 2013, 3:59pm
The Valar and Ungoliant	elostirion74	Apr 10 2013, 9:42pm
The timing of Ungoliant settling in Avathar	Brethil	Apr 11 2013, 5:47pm
Sounds plausible! I like the idea of Ungoliant the elf-stalker //	noWizardme	Apr 11 2013, 9:02pm
Yes she might have quite a resume...! (And discretion and Valar...hahahah!)	Brethil	Apr 11 2013, 10:01pm
agreed! things are "taking shape"	telain	Apr 13 2013, 12:56am
Very good point Telain about other spirits "out there"	Brethil	Apr 13 2013, 2:08am
clothes really do make the Maiar	telain	Apr 14 2013, 11:07pm
Very true on Primordial Fear Telain	Brethil	Apr 16 2013, 12:29am
a few answers	elostirion74	Apr 10 2013, 12:39pm
Some answers	CuriousG	Apr 11 2013, 9:29pm
Good points	Ardam�r�	Apr 12 2013, 2:39am
I have a (partial) defence of Feanor - which I'm preparing as part of discussion of next chapter... //	noWizardme	Apr 12 2013, 7:56am
Your ideas on Feanor	Brethil	Apr 12 2013, 11:43am
just was reading the chapter last night	Maciliel	Apr 12 2013, 10:18am
What an interesting idea! //	noWizardme	Apr 12 2013, 11:21am
Ungoliant is almost a bad Bombadil	CuriousG	Apr 12 2013, 1:05pm
Her unending hunger	Brethil	Apr 12 2013, 1:10pm
Yes, her hatred is fascinating too	CuriousG	Apr 12 2013, 1:20pm
I really like this - she consumes the reaminder of her goodness	Brethil	Apr 12 2013, 1:35pm
so why is everyone so nuts over feanor?	Maciliel	Apr 16 2013, 3:06am
Feanor had a good image consultant in his author	CuriousG	Apr 16 2013, 3:59am
He's an unlikeable artist	squire	Apr 16 2013, 4:09am
Artists and stereotypes	CuriousG	Apr 16 2013, 4:45am
"King of Planet Unreasonable"	noWizardme	Apr 16 2013, 11:17am
question about form...	Maciliel	Apr 16 2013, 11:23am
I started the next chapter...	noWizardme	Apr 16 2013, 12:08pm
hurrah!	Maciliel	Apr 16 2013, 12:15pm
Melkor & Ungoliant are like Frodo & Sam	CuriousG	Apr 11 2013, 9:31pm
Wow interesting dark parallel	Brethil	Apr 12 2013, 2:43am
Could this be chapter 1?	noWizardme	Apr 13 2013, 4:43pm
True, it could be a starting point, but the feel would definitely change	Brethil	Apr 13 2013, 7:20pm
I agree, it wouldn't fee do mythical. Also, Eru would be much more distant. //	noWizardme	Apr 13 2013, 8:04pm
It links up with you great thread about his writing process...	Brethil	Apr 13 2013, 9:47pm
The Sil was not really ready for prime time in the late 1940s	squire	Apr 14 2013, 12:19am
To do with how Tolkien imagined the Sil, I think	noWizardme	Apr 14 2013, 10:39am
It's a complex proposition, following Tolkien's process here	squire	Apr 14 2013, 3:16pm
Well, if The Hobbit is any indication	CuriousG	Apr 15 2013, 1:35am
who looks likely to be	Maciliel	Apr 15 2013, 1:47am
maciliel-thoughts	Maciliel	Apr 15 2013, 3:56am
Wonderful - thank you!	sador	Apr 15 2013, 2:45pm
thanks, sador	Maciliel	Apr 15 2013, 2:51pm
Intentional descent, or accidental?	CuriousG	Apr 16 2013, 12:43am
"Y' get accustomed to th' smell."	squire	Apr 16 2013, 1:12am
...and if it smells troubling today	noWizardme	Apr 16 2013, 11:22am
Tolkien's villians - can we deduce any general points?	noWizardme	Apr 16 2013, 1:51pm
ungoliant	boldog	Apr 15 2013, 9:54am
A brief appearance in each book	noWizardme	Apr 15 2013, 1:53pm
And the mosters Beren fought with on his way to Doriath. //	sador	Apr 15 2013, 2:37pm
Imagine leaving Ungoliant out of the Chapter!	noWizardme	Apr 15 2013, 8:37pm
Ungoliant from Arda Reconstructed	CuriousG	Apr 16 2013, 2:07am
Melkor killing the Trees extends the tale	Brethil	Apr 16 2013, 2:43am
Me too	CuriousG	Apr 16 2013, 12:25am
Late for the party	sador	Apr 15 2013, 2:35pm
The forgotten wife	CuriousG	Apr 16 2013, 12:35am
the sad fate of indis, and the rulership of the noldor	Maciliel	Apr 16 2013, 1:10am
the ruler of the noldor -- high queen galadriel	Maciliel	Apr 16 2013, 1:12am
Indis & Finwe	Ardam�r�	Apr 16 2013, 1:48am
Gollum/Ungoliant	Finwe	Apr 15 2013, 9:29pm
Good points	CuriousG	Apr 16 2013, 12:13am

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