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squire
Half-elven
Apr 14 2013, 12:19am
Views: 1041
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The Sil was not really ready for prime time in the late 1940s
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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As you say, Tolkien realized when he finished LotR that he had composed a vast mythic cycle. To his mind then, its readers should start with the extensive texts he had already written about what he had come to call the First Age. So he tortured two publishing companies in the next few years while he struggled to pull the entire set of texts together. But it was futile. It's true that the Sil was mostly written out by 1937, but it was neither complete nor consistent in style, plot, and sequence. It was, frankly, a mess.
When we read today about Christopher Tolkien's struggles to make a readable and enjoyable book out of what his father (after thirty more years of revision and composition) left him in the 1970s, including CT's numerous controversial emendations and at points some straight-out invention to fill 'unlovely' gaps in the narrative, it is hard to argue that the fault in the late 1940s was the publishers'.
It's true that we can imagine LotR being briefer and more assured in its references to the mythic origins of Middle-earth, had the writer been able to assume that readers were familiar with the Sil. But I'm not sure "lighter and quicker" is really what I want when I read LotR, I have to admit. And Tolkien is also on record as saying that he thought LotR benefited from the vagueness of the references to the Sil:
I am doubtful myself about the undertaking [to write The Silmarillion]. Part of the attraction of The L. R. is, I think, due to the glimpses of a large history in the background: an attraction like that of viewing far off an unvisited island, or seeing the towers of a distant city gleaming in a sunlit mist. To go there is to destroy the magic, unless new unattainable vistas are again revealed. (Letters, p. 333, as quoted by C.T. in his Foreword to History of Middle-earth, vol. 1)
Was he being sincere here, or simply acquiescing to the inevitable - looking for a bright side to not having completed the Sil in time to publish it simultaneously with LotR?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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**Silmarillion discusion, Chapter 8: Of the Darkening of Valinor**
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Ardamírë
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Apr 8 2013, 10:48pm
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I'm not convinced
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Apr 8 2013, 11:14pm
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Guards
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Ardamírë
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Apr 8 2013, 11:27pm
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Even the sentries on holiday AGAIN?
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noWizardme
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Apr 9 2013, 10:46am
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I hadn't even thought of that!
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Ardamírë
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Apr 9 2013, 5:33pm
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That's why I thought the feast feels "fey"
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Brethil
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Apr 9 2013, 6:27pm
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I think it's a combination
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Finwe
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Apr 9 2013, 7:53pm
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Ultimately I think its a combination as well Finwe
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Brethil
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Apr 10 2013, 12:45am
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Morgoth's Ring
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Finwe
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Apr 10 2013, 2:01am
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Ice Pillars
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Ardamírë
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Apr 10 2013, 2:09am
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You could be correct
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Finwe
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Apr 10 2013, 2:20am
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Yes, definitely somewhere!
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Ardamírë
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Apr 10 2013, 2:54am
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Possibly overconfidence?
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CuriousG
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Apr 9 2013, 7:56pm
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overconfidence and naivete?
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telain
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Apr 13 2013, 12:17am
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The Darkening of Valinor - thoughts on the chapter
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Brethil
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Apr 9 2013, 2:46am
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"the primeval devourer of light"
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noWizardme
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Apr 9 2013, 11:17am
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True N-W-M, and in addition...
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Brethil
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Apr 9 2013, 4:49pm
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What we know, and don't know, about Ungoliant
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noWizardme
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Apr 9 2013, 9:57pm
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Mulling on Ungoliant
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Brethil
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Apr 10 2013, 12:02am
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Ungoliant
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Finwe
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Apr 10 2013, 2:14am
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True - she comes from darkness it seems, in either version
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Brethil
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Apr 10 2013, 2:25am
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Philosophical and in-world-theological problems?
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noWizardme
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Apr 10 2013, 6:32am
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The sprits called forth, such as Ungoliant
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Brethil
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Apr 10 2013, 2:06pm
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*applause and guffaws*
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CuriousG
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Apr 11 2013, 9:06pm
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don't read this post after dark...
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telain
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Apr 13 2013, 12:46am
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My thoughts
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Finwe
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Apr 9 2013, 7:31pm
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One more thing
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Finwe
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Apr 9 2013, 8:10pm
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I often think that too.
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CuriousG
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Apr 9 2013, 8:51pm
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Ungoliant and the sometimes puzzling Valar behavior
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Brethil
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Apr 9 2013, 10:48pm
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well
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elostirion74
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Apr 10 2013, 12:58pm
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You and I agree
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Finwe
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Apr 10 2013, 3:59pm
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The Valar and Ungoliant
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elostirion74
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Apr 10 2013, 9:42pm
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The timing of Ungoliant settling in Avathar
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Brethil
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Apr 11 2013, 5:47pm
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Sounds plausible! I like the idea of Ungoliant the elf-stalker //
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noWizardme
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Apr 11 2013, 9:02pm
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Yes she might have quite a resume...! (And discretion and Valar...hahahah!)
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Brethil
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Apr 11 2013, 10:01pm
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agreed! things are "taking shape"
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telain
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Apr 13 2013, 12:56am
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Very good point Telain about other spirits "out there"
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Brethil
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Apr 13 2013, 2:08am
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clothes really do make the Maiar
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telain
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Apr 14 2013, 11:07pm
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Very true on Primordial Fear Telain
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Brethil
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Apr 16 2013, 12:29am
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a few answers
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elostirion74
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Apr 10 2013, 12:39pm
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Some answers
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CuriousG
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Apr 11 2013, 9:29pm
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Good points
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Ardamírë
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Apr 12 2013, 2:39am
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I have a (partial) defence of Feanor - which I'm preparing as part of discussion of next chapter... //
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noWizardme
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Apr 12 2013, 7:56am
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Your ideas on Feanor
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Brethil
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Apr 12 2013, 11:43am
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just was reading the chapter last night
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Maciliel
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Apr 12 2013, 10:18am
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What an interesting idea! //
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noWizardme
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Apr 12 2013, 11:21am
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Ungoliant is almost a bad Bombadil
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CuriousG
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Apr 12 2013, 1:05pm
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Her unending hunger
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Brethil
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Apr 12 2013, 1:10pm
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Yes, her hatred is fascinating too
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CuriousG
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Apr 12 2013, 1:20pm
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I really like this - she consumes the reaminder of her goodness
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Brethil
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Apr 12 2013, 1:35pm
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so why is everyone so nuts over feanor?
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Maciliel
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Apr 16 2013, 3:06am
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Feanor had a good image consultant in his author
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CuriousG
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Apr 16 2013, 3:59am
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He's an unlikeable artist
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squire
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Apr 16 2013, 4:09am
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Artists and stereotypes
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CuriousG
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Apr 16 2013, 4:45am
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"King of Planet Unreasonable"
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noWizardme
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Apr 16 2013, 11:17am
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question about form...
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Maciliel
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Apr 16 2013, 11:23am
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I started the next chapter...
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noWizardme
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Apr 16 2013, 12:08pm
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hurrah!
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Maciliel
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Apr 16 2013, 12:15pm
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Melkor & Ungoliant are like Frodo & Sam
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CuriousG
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Apr 11 2013, 9:31pm
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Wow interesting dark parallel
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Brethil
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Apr 12 2013, 2:43am
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Could this be chapter 1?
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noWizardme
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Apr 13 2013, 4:43pm
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True, it could be a starting point, but the feel would definitely change
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Brethil
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Apr 13 2013, 7:20pm
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I agree, it wouldn't fee do mythical. Also, Eru would be much more distant. //
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noWizardme
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Apr 13 2013, 8:04pm
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It links up with you great thread about his writing process...
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Brethil
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Apr 13 2013, 9:47pm
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The Sil was not really ready for prime time in the late 1940s
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squire
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Apr 14 2013, 12:19am
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To do with how Tolkien imagined the Sil, I think
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noWizardme
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Apr 14 2013, 10:39am
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It's a complex proposition, following Tolkien's process here
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squire
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Apr 14 2013, 3:16pm
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Well, if The Hobbit is any indication
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CuriousG
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Apr 15 2013, 1:35am
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who looks likely to be
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Maciliel
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Apr 15 2013, 1:47am
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maciliel-thoughts
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Maciliel
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Apr 15 2013, 3:56am
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Wonderful - thank you!
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sador
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Apr 15 2013, 2:45pm
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thanks, sador
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Maciliel
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Apr 15 2013, 2:51pm
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Intentional descent, or accidental?
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CuriousG
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Apr 16 2013, 12:43am
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"Y' get accustomed to th' smell."
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squire
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Apr 16 2013, 1:12am
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...and if it smells troubling today
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noWizardme
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Apr 16 2013, 11:22am
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Tolkien's villians - can we deduce any general points?
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noWizardme
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Apr 16 2013, 1:51pm
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ungoliant
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boldog
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Apr 15 2013, 9:54am
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A brief appearance in each book
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noWizardme
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Apr 15 2013, 1:53pm
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And the mosters Beren fought with on his way to Doriath. //
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sador
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Apr 15 2013, 2:37pm
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Imagine leaving Ungoliant out of the Chapter!
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noWizardme
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Apr 15 2013, 8:37pm
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Ungoliant from Arda Reconstructed
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CuriousG
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Apr 16 2013, 2:07am
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Melkor killing the Trees extends the tale
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Brethil
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Apr 16 2013, 2:43am
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Me too
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CuriousG
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Apr 16 2013, 12:25am
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Late for the party
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sador
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Apr 15 2013, 2:35pm
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The forgotten wife
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CuriousG
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Apr 16 2013, 12:35am
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the sad fate of indis, and the rulership of the noldor
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Maciliel
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Apr 16 2013, 1:10am
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the ruler of the noldor -- high queen galadriel
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Maciliel
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Apr 16 2013, 1:12am
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Indis & Finwe
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Ardamírë
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Apr 16 2013, 1:48am
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Gollum/Ungoliant
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Finwe
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Apr 15 2013, 9:29pm
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Good points
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CuriousG
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Apr 16 2013, 12:13am
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