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Finwe
Lorien
Apr 9 2013, 7:31pm
Views: 1657
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The chapter begins with Melkor running off and the Valar in pursuit of him. It's mentioned that Melkor is still able to change his form "or walk unclad." Was there ever really any chance then of catching him? I don't think so. One would think that they should be able to "feel" his evil presence, but even that wouldn't avail them to physically capture and imprison him again. So what is Ungoliant? I've always believed her to be a Maia. Obviously a very powerful one to take on such a monstrous form and put a scare into the heart of Melkor. Finwe doesn't attend the feast, and Feanor decides to withhold the Silmarils from the eyes of the Elves and Valar. What do you think of these decisions? 'Love not to greatly the work of thine own hands' is a central theme to the Silmarillon. Feanor's denial of the silmarils leads to the loss of his father and treasure. Finwe, in his blind devotion to his eldest child, misses his final opportunity to once again unite the Noldor. Pride and vanity win out, to disastrous consequences. Which version do you prefer? Which do you think is stronger? I prefer the united Melkor and Ungoliant, as it allows the reader to truly understand just how powerful Ungoliant truly is. The narrator can repeatedly state this fact, but it doesn't have the same effect as the vision of Melkor, the mightiest being in Arda, quailing in fear at the sight of Ungoliant destroying the Trees.
As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.
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**Silmarillion discusion, Chapter 8: Of the Darkening of Valinor**
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Ardamírë
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Apr 8 2013, 10:48pm
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I'm not convinced
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Hamfast Gamgee
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Apr 8 2013, 11:14pm
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Guards
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Ardamírë
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Apr 8 2013, 11:27pm
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Even the sentries on holiday AGAIN?
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noWizardme
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Apr 9 2013, 10:46am
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I hadn't even thought of that!
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Ardamírë
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Apr 9 2013, 5:33pm
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That's why I thought the feast feels "fey"
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Brethil
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Apr 9 2013, 6:27pm
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I think it's a combination
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Finwe
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Apr 9 2013, 7:53pm
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Ultimately I think its a combination as well Finwe
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Brethil
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Apr 10 2013, 12:45am
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Morgoth's Ring
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Finwe
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Apr 10 2013, 2:01am
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Ice Pillars
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Ardamírë
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Apr 10 2013, 2:09am
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You could be correct
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Finwe
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Apr 10 2013, 2:20am
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Yes, definitely somewhere!
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Ardamírë
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Apr 10 2013, 2:54am
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Possibly overconfidence?
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CuriousG
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Apr 9 2013, 7:56pm
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overconfidence and naivete?
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telain
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Apr 13 2013, 12:17am
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The Darkening of Valinor - thoughts on the chapter
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Brethil
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Apr 9 2013, 2:46am
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"the primeval devourer of light"
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noWizardme
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Apr 9 2013, 11:17am
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True N-W-M, and in addition...
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Brethil
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Apr 9 2013, 4:49pm
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What we know, and don't know, about Ungoliant
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noWizardme
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Apr 9 2013, 9:57pm
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Mulling on Ungoliant
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Brethil
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Apr 10 2013, 12:02am
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Ungoliant
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Finwe
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Apr 10 2013, 2:14am
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True - she comes from darkness it seems, in either version
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Brethil
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Apr 10 2013, 2:25am
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Philosophical and in-world-theological problems?
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noWizardme
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Apr 10 2013, 6:32am
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The sprits called forth, such as Ungoliant
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Brethil
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Apr 10 2013, 2:06pm
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*applause and guffaws*
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CuriousG
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Apr 11 2013, 9:06pm
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don't read this post after dark...
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telain
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Apr 13 2013, 12:46am
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My thoughts
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Finwe
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Apr 9 2013, 7:31pm
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One more thing
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Finwe
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Apr 9 2013, 8:10pm
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I often think that too.
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CuriousG
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Apr 9 2013, 8:51pm
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Ungoliant and the sometimes puzzling Valar behavior
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Brethil
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Apr 9 2013, 10:48pm
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well
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elostirion74
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Apr 10 2013, 12:58pm
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You and I agree
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Finwe
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Apr 10 2013, 3:59pm
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The Valar and Ungoliant
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elostirion74
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Apr 10 2013, 9:42pm
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The timing of Ungoliant settling in Avathar
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Brethil
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Apr 11 2013, 5:47pm
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Sounds plausible! I like the idea of Ungoliant the elf-stalker //
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noWizardme
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Apr 11 2013, 9:02pm
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Yes she might have quite a resume...! (And discretion and Valar...hahahah!)
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Brethil
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Apr 11 2013, 10:01pm
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agreed! things are "taking shape"
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telain
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Apr 13 2013, 12:56am
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Very good point Telain about other spirits "out there"
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Brethil
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Apr 13 2013, 2:08am
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clothes really do make the Maiar
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telain
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Apr 14 2013, 11:07pm
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Very true on Primordial Fear Telain
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Brethil
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Apr 16 2013, 12:29am
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a few answers
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elostirion74
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Apr 10 2013, 12:39pm
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Some answers
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CuriousG
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Apr 11 2013, 9:29pm
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Good points
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Ardamírë
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Apr 12 2013, 2:39am
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I have a (partial) defence of Feanor - which I'm preparing as part of discussion of next chapter... //
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noWizardme
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Apr 12 2013, 7:56am
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Your ideas on Feanor
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Brethil
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Apr 12 2013, 11:43am
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just was reading the chapter last night
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Maciliel
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Apr 12 2013, 10:18am
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What an interesting idea! //
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noWizardme
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Apr 12 2013, 11:21am
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Ungoliant is almost a bad Bombadil
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CuriousG
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Apr 12 2013, 1:05pm
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Her unending hunger
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Brethil
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Apr 12 2013, 1:10pm
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Yes, her hatred is fascinating too
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CuriousG
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Apr 12 2013, 1:20pm
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I really like this - she consumes the reaminder of her goodness
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Brethil
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Apr 12 2013, 1:35pm
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so why is everyone so nuts over feanor?
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Maciliel
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Apr 16 2013, 3:06am
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Feanor had a good image consultant in his author
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CuriousG
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Apr 16 2013, 3:59am
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He's an unlikeable artist
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squire
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Apr 16 2013, 4:09am
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Artists and stereotypes
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CuriousG
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Apr 16 2013, 4:45am
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"King of Planet Unreasonable"
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noWizardme
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Apr 16 2013, 11:17am
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question about form...
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Maciliel
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Apr 16 2013, 11:23am
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I started the next chapter...
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noWizardme
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Apr 16 2013, 12:08pm
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hurrah!
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Maciliel
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Apr 16 2013, 12:15pm
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Melkor & Ungoliant are like Frodo & Sam
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CuriousG
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Apr 11 2013, 9:31pm
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Wow interesting dark parallel
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Brethil
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Apr 12 2013, 2:43am
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Could this be chapter 1?
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noWizardme
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Apr 13 2013, 4:43pm
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True, it could be a starting point, but the feel would definitely change
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Brethil
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Apr 13 2013, 7:20pm
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I agree, it wouldn't fee do mythical. Also, Eru would be much more distant. //
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noWizardme
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Apr 13 2013, 8:04pm
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It links up with you great thread about his writing process...
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Brethil
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Apr 13 2013, 9:47pm
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The Sil was not really ready for prime time in the late 1940s
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squire
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Apr 14 2013, 12:19am
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To do with how Tolkien imagined the Sil, I think
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noWizardme
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Apr 14 2013, 10:39am
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It's a complex proposition, following Tolkien's process here
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squire
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Apr 14 2013, 3:16pm
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Well, if The Hobbit is any indication
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CuriousG
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Apr 15 2013, 1:35am
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who looks likely to be
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Maciliel
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Apr 15 2013, 1:47am
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maciliel-thoughts
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Maciliel
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Apr 15 2013, 3:56am
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Wonderful - thank you!
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sador
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Apr 15 2013, 2:45pm
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thanks, sador
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Maciliel
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Apr 15 2013, 2:51pm
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Intentional descent, or accidental?
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CuriousG
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Apr 16 2013, 12:43am
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"Y' get accustomed to th' smell."
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squire
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Apr 16 2013, 1:12am
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...and if it smells troubling today
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noWizardme
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Apr 16 2013, 11:22am
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Tolkien's villians - can we deduce any general points?
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noWizardme
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Apr 16 2013, 1:51pm
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ungoliant
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boldog
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Apr 15 2013, 9:54am
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A brief appearance in each book
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noWizardme
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Apr 15 2013, 1:53pm
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And the mosters Beren fought with on his way to Doriath. //
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sador
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Apr 15 2013, 2:37pm
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Imagine leaving Ungoliant out of the Chapter!
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noWizardme
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Apr 15 2013, 8:37pm
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Ungoliant from Arda Reconstructed
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CuriousG
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Apr 16 2013, 2:07am
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Melkor killing the Trees extends the tale
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Brethil
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Apr 16 2013, 2:43am
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Me too
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CuriousG
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Apr 16 2013, 12:25am
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Late for the party
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sador
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Apr 15 2013, 2:35pm
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The forgotten wife
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CuriousG
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Apr 16 2013, 12:35am
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the sad fate of indis, and the rulership of the noldor
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Maciliel
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Apr 16 2013, 1:10am
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the ruler of the noldor -- high queen galadriel
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Maciliel
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Apr 16 2013, 1:12am
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Indis & Finwe
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Ardamírë
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Apr 16 2013, 1:48am
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Gollum/Ungoliant
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Finwe
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Apr 15 2013, 9:29pm
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Good points
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CuriousG
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Apr 16 2013, 12:13am
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