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Mar 27 2013, 3:21am

Views: 621
maciliel-thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Not disagreeing, just want to hear your thoughts. Do you think intellectuals are prone to certain traps that others are not? Do they fall prey to arguments shrouded in reason? Or, are they more concerned about seeming smarter than they actually are, so that if they hear something that sounds smarter than they are, they agree with it to keep their status? I know we can't generalize about all intellectuals, but do you think this is a common trait? Because I still wonder why Tolkien called them the Deep Elves and they do not see the depth of evil in Melkor that the Fair Elves do. To me they are the Proud Elves, and that's the seed of their downfall, but he doesn't name them that way.

"This is, of course, all the more frightening: one can start with the purest intentions (after all, Varda did hallow them and Feanor wore them afterwards unscathed) and come to extreme possessiveness."

Again, not arguing, but do you think that Feanor started with pure intentions, and later became corrupted by possessiveness? I'm never sure what to think. There is the bit I read somewhere that he first asked Galadriel for some of her hair, which had the quality of the Two Trees' light, but she rejected him, so he seemed to create the Silmarils almost in spite of her. But that's not necessarily canon. For my own feelings about the story, I'd like to think that Feanor wasn't all bad, and wasn't in the beginning, so the Silmarils were just these really cool gems he created, then later he realized he could never make anything that splendid again, and that's when his obsessive possessiveness began, but I'm not sure."

intellectuals are subject to the same pitfalls as everyone else. it just seems more dramatic when they fall for "arguments shrouded in reason," and for those sorts of failures, there's plenty of schadenfreude from those who feel inferior to or threatened by intellectuals.

throughout his works, tolkien makes a fairly consistent connection between -- not creation -- but craft. be that metal craft or mining craft or what have you.

sauron was affiliated with aule, a master crafter. and he went astray. as did many, many noldor, who also were closely affiliated with aule. saurman was affiliated with aule. he went astray. aule himself went astray, in creating the dwarves. dwarves are depicted by tolkien as often being beguiled by their creations, and by their craft.

i read, in tolkien's works, the message that the love of craft/science (be it jewel-making, metalwork, language-work) that is not +in balance+ with respect and reverence for nature is bound to yield poisoned fruit. (ironic metaphor consciously chosen.)

i think feanor's original intentions weren't pure in the sense that he was working to create something for all. i think he was driven by his artistic muse to create, and heeded the call. i don't think feanor was "bad" to begin with, but i do suspect that, even as a small child, he did not value relations with people as much as he valued the skill of his own hands. people often had value for him because they were connected to this crafting call. i suspect he also had major trust and intimacy issues growing up. one of the few of the eldar in aman without a mother, whose mother consciously chose not to return to him, even though she could. as hard as it is for human children to lose a parent, think how especially abandoned you would feel if your parent had a chance to come back to you, to return from the dead, and refused to do so.

feanor's refusal to let the silmarils be used to restore the trees is beyond selfish. it is sick.

cheers --


aka. fili orc-enshield
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Mar 27 2013, 3:25am)

Subject User Time
**Silmarillion Discussion Chapter 7: Of The Silmirals and the Unrest of the Noldor elevorn Send a private message to elevorn Mar 18 2013, 4:48pm
    My thoughts Finwe Send a private message to Finwe Mar 18 2013, 7:08pm
    Thoughts on Ch 7, Feanor and Family Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 19 2013, 8:34pm
    a few thoughts telain Send a private message to telain Mar 21 2013, 5:21pm
    maciliel-thoughts Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Mar 21 2013, 10:57pm
    Answers and more questions CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 24 2013, 3:24am
        And answering Your questions sador Send a private message to sador Mar 24 2013, 10:40am
            More questions CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 27 2013, 12:59am
                maciliel-thoughts Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Mar 27 2013, 3:21am
                    "Smart people don't start many bar fights. But stupid people don't build many hydrogen bombs." noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Mar 31 2013, 2:27pm
                oh, good question telain Send a private message to telain Mar 27 2013, 12:22pm
                Deep Elves elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Mar 27 2013, 10:48pm
                    Problems of creation playing out on a new level noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Mar 30 2013, 4:10pm
        Silmarils and creation ethic Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 26 2013, 7:35pm
            Great insights, Brethil CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 27 2013, 12:46am
                Great post CG Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 27 2013, 8:37pm
        interesting, curiousg Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Mar 27 2013, 3:41am
    Answering your questions sador Send a private message to sador Mar 24 2013, 9:27am
        Just to note that discussion of the next chapter has started noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 9 2013, 11:24am
            very thoughtful addition Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 9 2013, 2:04pm


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