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Clueless? Hardly!

Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 18 2013, 3:15am


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Clueless? Hardly! [In reply to] Can't Post


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Great observation, Brethil!

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Very, very true about what you say about Nienna! Her skills are needed to right the balance - it seems like balance is an integral part of Eru's plans. So her existence and prominence is a sort of negative evidence for his foreknowledge of the possibility of evil. Such beauty in the logic.

Telain gave us a great basis for this construct, by pointing out the prominence of Nienna's role. I'd never thought of that before, but of course it makes sense now that you point it out. Nienna's role was preordained and required to balance the malice of Melkor and Sauron. I think the other Valar are as clueless as me. For starters - having read so many of your amazing insights in these last months CG, NEVER would I call you clueless....! Why didn't they look at her and figure the reason she existed, or at least the reason her personality was oriented towards tears and compassion, was because of all the evil that the world was doomed to undergo, and then grasping that fact, why didn't they try harder to understand evil (i.e., Melkor) to better prevent it? Easier said than done, of course. I think it comes back to that childlike naivete, the starting point of the Valar. The Spring, the early morning of the world.

To fast forward, when Melkor is ultimately defeated, there's no pardon, no pity (not even from Nienna, I guess), no cooling off period in Mandos. He's thrown outside the world, permanently, because the Valar finally realize that he is irredeemable and poisons everything he touches. You don't cure plutonium of emitting deadly radiation; if it exists, that's what it does. Though I shouldn't be too hard on them. I think The Silmarillion is as much about the youth and maturing of the Valar as it is about Elves and Men, even if we don't see much of the Valar after the initial chapters. Everyone is on a journey of wisdom in this book as they are in LOTR. And giving Melkor the benefit of the doubt was the moral thing to do. It is totally true, CG, both points. It WAS the moral thing to do, in the beginning, with not enough knowledge of the damage that "benefit of the doubt" could cause. It's also true that later - with the knowledge they now had - casting Melkor far from Arda was also (although the opposite action) still the moral thing to do. Odd right? I think it's Tolkien's theme of cyclicality and seasonality, as you all so aptly discussed (and its an amazing discussion) previously, and with that the gaining of wisdom. Like all things it always seems to grade from light to dark, spring to winter, light notes to thunderous ones. Even as Arda was being made Illuvatar had sung its final, violent, dark notes in preparation for the Last Battle and the Remaking. As for pity - maybe by then Nienna had learned more fear, and less pity, and thus had more regard for the dangers of Melkor. (Wish we had more reaction text to go by here.) If she hadn't, maybe it caused her a hurt, if she still held out hope. Drifted a bit here but the points you brought up are so good. I always learn things here too. Enriches my inner Tolkien world that I already love!


Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 18 2013, 3:20am)

Subject User Time
Silmarilion Discussion, Chapter 6: "...and the Unchaining of Melkor" 2 of 2 telain Send a private message to telain Mar 11 2013, 4:42pm
    Unleashing the beast CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 13 2013, 5:55pm
        how well do we really know Melkor? telain Send a private message to telain Mar 16 2013, 11:02pm
            Melkor Choice and naivete of the Valar Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 17 2013, 1:38am
                Melkor's dark music and Nienna's healing telain Send a private message to telain Mar 17 2013, 11:34pm
                    Pride and pity CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 18 2013, 12:49am
                        I get your thoughts CG! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 18 2013, 1:19am
                    Some thoughts on Nienna and Olorin and pity Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 18 2013, 1:12am
                        I'm always learning something new here CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 18 2013, 2:04am
                            Clueless? Hardly! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 18 2013, 3:15am
    My thoughts Finwe Send a private message to Finwe Mar 14 2013, 7:07pm
        how did Aule get in this chapter? Oh, yes... telain Send a private message to telain Mar 16 2013, 11:39pm
            The whole "Knowledge- good or bad?" question elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Mar 17 2013, 10:28am
    my thoughts Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Mar 16 2013, 12:30am
        Free will Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Mar 16 2013, 4:40am
            then how does this apply to the gift of men? Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Mar 16 2013, 11:09am
                It's not easy for us Mortals to see it as a gift, is it? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 16 2013, 3:45pm
                    as you've described it.. Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Mar 16 2013, 4:06pm
                        Scratching head, flipping though text- Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 16 2013, 4:49pm
                            I think the "gift" is not connected to "free will". Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Mar 16 2013, 9:40pm
                                Did not intend to imply control Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 16 2013, 10:13pm
        Feanor is a pit of smouldering coals... telain Send a private message to telain Mar 16 2013, 11:52pm
    Hello all, my first post about Sil, but I have been following :) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 16 2013, 2:01am
    Late answers sador Send a private message to sador Mar 18 2013, 7:35am

 
 
 

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