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Scratching head, flipping though text-

Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 16 2013, 4:49pm


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Scratching head, flipping though text- [In reply to] Can't Post

(Thanks Maciliel, for the compliment! )
It's not a crystal clear idea, I know. I have read it for almost twenty years, and sometimes not sure if I really get it. Have my DH making fun of me here doing my TORn "homework" LOL!!!

To try to explain what I mean, I found this in Ainulindale:
(Illuvatar to the Valar)
no theme may be played that has not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall be but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

So maybe what he is saying here (as Elizabeth pointed out earlier) that there will be strains of his music, both negative and positive, but he is not unaware of ANY of them. And that the Valar themselves lack the ultimate knowledge of outcomes, but that Illuvatar does not - and that even if they attempt to alter the grand scheme, Illuvatar's designs will still be achieved. So that the actions of all those somewhat darker and conflicted Firstborn, or Melkor himself, aren't "preordained" (they still choose how to act) but that Illuvatar is aware of those strains in the Song, and that they ultimately cannot undermine his will.

So that gives Melkor room to misbehave, (choosing to do so) as it were, and still ultimately serve the Song. The Kinslayers too, and Feanor as well, ultimately will somehow bring about Illuvatar's will, because as Firstborn they serve the ends of Illuvatar even if they don't see it themselves, or if it is ages in coming.

Men though, are outside this restriction because of the Gift. Their choices are NOT limited by the forsight of Illuvatar. Their impacts on Arda then can be outside the Song, and outside of any planning by Illuvatar - loose cannons, in short, the essence of spontaneity and completely free will. And as such can alter Arda in ways that the Firstborn or the Valar cannot, also in ways that Illuvatar himself cannot see in advance because it is not in his Song. A bold, bold gift actually.
Don't know if that is clearer or nor - I hope so Smile I also hope this sounds reasonable...sometimes its hard to tell.


Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 16 2013, 4:51pm)

Subject User Time
Silmarilion Discussion, Chapter 6: "...and the Unchaining of Melkor" 2 of 2 telain Send a private message to telain Mar 11 2013, 4:42pm
    Unleashing the beast CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 13 2013, 5:55pm
        how well do we really know Melkor? telain Send a private message to telain Mar 16 2013, 11:02pm
            Melkor Choice and naivete of the Valar Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 17 2013, 1:38am
                Melkor's dark music and Nienna's healing telain Send a private message to telain Mar 17 2013, 11:34pm
                    Pride and pity CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 18 2013, 12:49am
                        I get your thoughts CG! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 18 2013, 1:19am
                    Some thoughts on Nienna and Olorin and pity Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 18 2013, 1:12am
                        I'm always learning something new here CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 18 2013, 2:04am
                            Clueless? Hardly! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 18 2013, 3:15am
    My thoughts Finwe Send a private message to Finwe Mar 14 2013, 7:07pm
        how did Aule get in this chapter? Oh, yes... telain Send a private message to telain Mar 16 2013, 11:39pm
            The whole "Knowledge- good or bad?" question elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Mar 17 2013, 10:28am
    my thoughts Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Mar 16 2013, 12:30am
        Free will Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Mar 16 2013, 4:40am
            then how does this apply to the gift of men? Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Mar 16 2013, 11:09am
                It's not easy for us Mortals to see it as a gift, is it? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 16 2013, 3:45pm
                    as you've described it.. Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Mar 16 2013, 4:06pm
                        Scratching head, flipping though text- Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 16 2013, 4:49pm
                            I think the "gift" is not connected to "free will". Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Mar 16 2013, 9:40pm
                                Did not intend to imply control Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 16 2013, 10:13pm
        Feanor is a pit of smouldering coals... telain Send a private message to telain Mar 16 2013, 11:52pm
    Hello all, my first post about Sil, but I have been following :) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Mar 16 2013, 2:01am
    Late answers sador Send a private message to sador Mar 18 2013, 7:35am

 
 
 

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