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lists, names and more stuff to remember...

elevorn
Lorien


Feb 25 2013, 6:42pm


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lists, names and more stuff to remember... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Lonely Mountains, Lonely Isles…they may be one of a kind, but why does Tolkien choose to call them Lonely? Does he use that term for any other spots in Aman or Middle Earth? How does that descriptor impact your impressions of these places?

Lonely in certain instances simply means that it stands alone. Erebor is a place that jumps to me as simple way of describing the geography. In the case of Tol Eressea, I tend to think that it is in fact a lonely place compared to the rest of Valinor. It’s like that person shut out of the party.

2. Osse causes trouble again! What is with this guy? Why can’t he just let the Teleri go?


Like a child with his toys he just can’t give them up. He has found a people that will listen to him and that he can teach and impress with all sorts of knowledge and power. Not to mention the fact that Osse is quite a rebel and in some case may wish for dominion over the elves, even if it is in a simplistic fashion.

3. Is the creation of the Lonely Isle a political compromise? What are the ramifications of Osse and Ulmo’s actions in choosing to root the Island in the Bay? Why don’t the Valar just outvote these guys and move the Island?


Perhaps less political than more of a recognition that they were wrong to ask them to come in the first place, so they just said okay we brought you almost, if you really want to come the rest of the way we can. The Valar don’t outvote each other in most matters. They listen to one another and kind of do their own thing. Besides didn’t they already have enough elves to play with?

4. For divine beings, the Valar and the Maia are pretty human at times, aren't they? They continue to second guess each other, give into persuasion, change their minds and avoid confrontation. And later, we’ll see that the Noldor have all kinds of conflicts, emotions, and problems of their own.


They wrestled with Melkor for quite a long time and many times they ended up second guessing themselves. It seems like this has become a habit out of fear of making a mistake. It connects them to Arda with their “human” characteristics.

It strikes me that Tolkien idealizes his settings, and the physical attributes of his characters, but their motivations and actions are closer to the human condition. Do you agree? Other thoughts on these musings?


A created being will be as it was created, and since everything was created by the same being, those characteristics will be in whatever form they can be. Human acts exist in many far flung places where there are no humans.

Is the divine being acting in human ways found in other mythologies? What about in fairy stories, Faerie stories, or fantasy tales?


I am reminded that some of the greek gods were pretty humanlike at many times, and not necessarily in a good way.

5. Let’s talk about the very brief descriptions of the Calacirya, Túna and Tirion in this section, which I included above.


Do you like the imagery here? I find these passages very moving in some ways – do you?


I love it, and some of the artwork I have by Nasmith really bring out these places in my mind.

Tolkien will refer to Tuna and Tirion many times in the Sil -- does he give us enough to go on here to be able to recall these places or have some kind of emotional resonance with them when he does bring them up again?


For me it depends on how recently I have read the SIL, and this section in particular. I could always use more though because I love the way Tolkien paints a word picture.

What about the reference to mortal men in connection with Tirion – does it make you curious as to who those lucky guys will be? Does the introduction of the human element impact your perceptions of this place in any way?


It’s a confusing allusion to me. Light had changed by the time Earendil came along, so I usually ascribe that saying to some sort of nautical reference of fancy. Something nice an old mariner woulfd have told himself in Tolkien’s world.

6. And how about some musings on how the Sil and LOTR relate to each other, as stories…


In this section, we get the introduction of the White Tree of Numenor…for me, when I first read the Sil, the references to people, places and things I’d encountered in LOTR were very helpful because they gave me a place to land in the middle of all of the new things Tolkien was pouring out at me. Anyone else find this helpful?


It helps, and at the same time the repetition of names muddles my mind at times. Celeborn especially, That guy just never could have an original name that sounded good could he?

And of course, if I found something in the Sil that I remembered being mentioned in LOTR, I went back and looked it up and had a lot of “aha” moments, when I realized, for example, what the heck Galadriel was singing about in her lament. That added a new level of delight, as a reader, which I appreciated. Would you say this is one of the key things that sets LOTR apart from other fantasy tales?


It feels old. Everywhere there is work from some forgotten age. It just makes me read harder and harder to try to imagine these places at the heighth of their time. I really wish there were more written in the legendarium, more stories are simply mentioned and not fleshed out. I wish the SIL contained the history of Numenor in a more complete form, and on from that, the stories of Elendil in Gondor and Arnor.

On the other hand, an author can get too carried away by trying to connect all the dots between past and future, and the story becomes an explanation and not a story, if I can put it that way (“cough” Star Wars prequels). Does Tolkien manage to avoid this trap, for you? Any comments on the way Tolkien weaves the Sil into LOTR and LOTR into the Sil?


I think Tolkien masterfully does this. There may be a few holes, but to me he saves himself because he always saw his point of view as a historian and not the actual creator of this. The holes or mistakes are due to poor records and not a forgetful author. Lucas does not even come close, and I don’t think he really ever tried.



"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
Check out my writing www.jdstudios.wordpress.com

Subject User Time
*Silmarillion Discussion: Chapter 5, "Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie", Part 2 -- The Great Teleri Compromise and a Guided Tour…* weaver Send a private message to weaver Feb 23 2013, 9:18pm
    Of islands and where to live CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 24 2013, 12:32am
    lists, names and more stuff to remember... elevorn Send a private message to elevorn Feb 25 2013, 6:42pm
    answers for questions that need them Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Feb 25 2013, 7:13pm
    Some answers from a "mythic" perspective FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 27 2013, 12:39pm
        Silmarillion's actuality Mixel Send a private message to Mixel Feb 28 2013, 11:45pm
        and thank you for those answers! telain Send a private message to telain Mar 1 2013, 12:36am
            Myths, floods, and physical geography? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 1 2013, 1:20am
                a very dim light! but a light nonetheless telain Send a private message to telain Mar 1 2013, 11:55pm
                    Enlightening--thanks!// CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 3 2013, 2:29pm
    Late answers sador Send a private message to sador Mar 3 2013, 10:40am

 
 
 

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